MA+Co
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp dot com to learn more, or follow the practice on Instagram at office dave sharp. Joining me on the show today are Karen Alcock and Rachel McNally of MA and Co, a 12 person Melbourne based practice working on a mix of residential, multi res, and commercial projects. In this episode, Karen, Rachel, and I discussed how their studio has fostered strong long term relationships with developers and their insights on how architects can play a bigger and more impactful role in the development team.
Dave Sharp:We looked at their approach to finding the right balance between development budgets and the enjoyment of future occupants by concentrating on designing little cost effective moments of joy into every space. They reflected on their recent rebrand, and we discussed the benefits of having a web site that's both highly curated in terms of the number of projects shown and the short, memorable messages that visitors see. We looked at how the brand refresh has allowed them to look inwards, communicate what's important to them as a practice, and gain a professional external perspective on their values and strengths. And finally, we took a close look at their recent Mori House, focusing on how commissioning 2 photography sessions of the one project allowed them to capture the house in both a raw form and then as a lived in home. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Karen and Rachel from MA and Co.
Dave Sharp:Karen and Rachel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Rachael McNally:Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yep.
Dave Sharp:Oh, well, as always, should we start off with maybe a little bit of a brief background of the practice? I mean, where did MA and Co start? What sort of work do you guys do? Get us up to speed.
Karen Alcock:Okay. Well, maybe I'll answer that because I'm the old chook of all this stuff. I have had a practice for about 20 odd years. I started off as a director with Near Metro, which for those people who aren't, in Melbourne was started in the eighties. It was a probably one of the first, groups that actually was doing sort of dual occupancy design led development in Melbourne.
Karen Alcock:And around 2,000 they decided to expand from just a developer to an architect developer builder practice, and I took the lead of the architectural practice along with Claire McAllister. And I was there for about 10 years. After about 10 years, we, Claire and I, stepped away and started McAllister Orcock Architects. Still working with Near Metro, but really we felt that, you know, after doing 10 years in this collaborative environment, we really wanted to learn how to be straight architects and not not be muddied I suppose by the developer side. And then eventually, you know, that has morphed into, MA and Co with, Rachel McNelly coming on board as associate director.
Karen Alcock:Once I'd sort of established what I wanted the practice to be, as a little bit older and I also saw the value in the staff that we had, And, you know, especially Rachel came on board about 7 years ago. And, you know, we we managed to develop a really good working relationship, but also one that was based on respect and, I suppose, care for each other, which made it a logical choice. So
Rachael McNally:And I think we have, very similar ideals, which makes it easy to work with each other and tell each other what we think and not be offended because we like each other no matter what, you know, and you can really have robust conversations about all things from architecture to what we think the practice should be.
Karen Alcock:Yeah.
Rachael McNally:I think we both like to make buildings, you know, like this big idea is great and the hero shot at the end is great, but we wanna make good buildings, spaces. So talking about the tectonics and how everything goes together, I think, is something that's really critical.
Dave Sharp:I guess, like, in terms of that background and and then the work that you guys do today, I think a really unique insight into the world of the developer, which I think is something that is quite unique to starting a practice. I feel that most architects I speak to don't have that experience on that side of the industry where they can then put themselves in the shoes of their client and sort of understand like where they're coming from. In terms of area, like give me the masterclass Karen and Rachel, like how do we as architects become absolute besties with developers and then work on incredible projects? Like, just give me point 1, 2, 3. Like, give me all the steps.
Dave Sharp:Just just give me the rundown. What do we need from the architects?
Karen Alcock:I can think of some smart ass responses, but, we call ourselves pragmatic dreamers. Right? This idea that you you have to be, when you're working in this area, you must be pragmatic about what can be achieved, But you can't forget to dream to to sort of aspire for something better, but it's that balance, that tension, you know, and not all developers are great developers. I've, you know, speak that good buildings are not just the product of the architect, they're the product of the developer, the architect, and the builder, you know, and when you get the dream team together you can really create good buildings, And I suppose we, you have to be selective about your clients, and then you have to listen to the pressures that they have, and try and come try to come up with solutions that may not cost them money, but are design driven. You know, I think that's super important and we talk about also design smarts, you know?
Karen Alcock:It's very easy to think that the solution to something is add more marble, or add more this, or add more that, but actually, especially when you're dealing with housing, I mean, if we can deliver great spaces, simple spaces that can be adapted, that feel good when you walk in there, you know they're the things that we aspire to rather than this layers of items that will soon be value managed out, right? That that's what we try to do. And also aspire for quality and be able to offer our clients a good understanding of how buildings go together, which is something that I learnt when I was at Neo Metro because at Neo when I was there the buildings were being built in house as much as you know, designed and built and delivered in house. Right? So understanding that there's always money being pulled out of projects because it's a matter of even like if you think you're doing your own house you're always trying to battle the outcome with the budget, right?
Karen Alcock:And I suppose we really learnt how to value manage well, how to turn something cheap into something desirable, those sorts of things. So I think it's really important to understand our role is as the architect, and we have a and that that's a role that we have to take seriously, and and we have to realize that that has boundaries, and then also understand where the value of that is for a developer. It's not coming on-site and being a wanker. It's actually trying to be able to offer real solutions and, be a bit nimble with the solutions, I think.
Rachael McNally:And over time, you get the trust from those repeat clients and that trust in knowing what we're doing and going with the ideas, committing to the ideas that we have, makes the process a lot easier, especially with like minded clients who have the same, you know, ideals as we do. It makes that process a a lot smoother. And then you just continue to run with that project after project and, you know, iron out those kinks and it becomes an enjoyable collaborative process.
Karen Alcock:Yeah I think also you know especially with Rachael and I working together, I think Rachael would probably put more aspirational ideas on a project. And then I would be thinking, okay, great idea. How are we gonna make that work? How do we make that work for the developer? How can we make it you know one of the problem are not problems but I think when you're working in this space, you don't want things to be too complicated because it's very hard to deliver tricky details on, multi res at the moment.
Karen Alcock:You know the builders are under pressure, it's very hard to get skilled labor, they rely a lot on their subcontractors to deliver quality, so you've really got to be trying to simplify things, and, making it buildable. Making the job for the builder easier, and therefore to get the quality and the design intent.
Rachael McNally:And we try and use, off the shelf products, but use them in a way that they become a lot more interesting. And use, you know, simple window systems, but how can we detail them to make them more interesting, use the same details repeated to simplify things on-site to the builder so the message is really clear and you can treat achieve that quality. So, like, reduction and repetition to make sure you get that end result.
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Dave Sharp:So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharpe.com. Is there an element there of the narrative of how you would explain some of the decision making to those clients or in those conversations you're having with them about design choices that you're making? Are you just always trying to be thoughtful to sort of put it through the lens of kind of pragmatic and aspirational or that primarily pragmatic sort of lens of going, we're solving problems, we're sort of delivering value, you just like try and really emphasize those points that they're kind of focusing on.
Karen Alcock:Yeah, I think so and I think that's also where it's nice having the 2 of us involved because I might come with the pragmatism.
Dave Sharp:Good cop, bad cop, right?
Karen Alcock:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachael McNally:Yeah. And we're complementary. Yeah. I mean When we need to be we can alternate. Yeah.
Karen Alcock:Yeah. But I mean I I'm there try I'm the problem solver. Rachel's selling the, you know, the ideas a lot of the time, and I'm I'm there talking about how are we going to achieve this, you know, and that's and we do, I suppose one of the things we do like, our core clients are definitely collaborators. The relationship between us, the boundary between us becomes quite blurred over, over the period of a project, and and that actually works for us. We try, you know sure there's times when you've got a, you know you've got a variation for fees and things like that, that that's one thing, But if we think, we're not saying we're only going to give you a better idea if you pay us, you know, x amount to make that happen.
Karen Alcock:We have buy in in the projects and I think that comes back to what Rachel, and I say buy in, it's not a financial buy in, it's just that if we're going to do a multi residential project. We're invested. Yeah we're invested rightly or wrongly, but we want we are actually about designing good buildings. We understand that we have a responsibility to deliver buildings that are more than a marketing render, Right? We're not that interested in doing that.
Dave Sharp:I'm just wondering with the developers specifically. I'm interested in that process of finding, filtering, and then bringing a new developer onboard into the process so that you're establishing that right balance sort of relationship of practicality and aspiration, good design, and making money. I guess the way you do that on the first project is kind of sets a little bit of the course for the future projects that you might do with that client. But I wonder, does it, like, kind of come down to really diligent selection and and vetting? Or is it, like, it's that kind of collaborative learning to work together, a sort of imparting our values a little bit into the way that we work and then kind of going from there?
Karen Alcock:I think we want to be more strategic about it, but it, you know, it's not always strategic, sometimes it's, it's just, I mean we've been fairly lucky I think, touchwood, with the people that we've worked with, and also I suppose people are coming to us because they know what we do, so therefore it's it's not like someone saying oh let's go to MA and Co because, they're the architect in the phone book if you like, not the phone book, but.
Dave Sharp:They're informed and they're sort of researched and they kind of know what they're they know they're getting and and they're sort of attracted to the work that you guys do and also the aura that surrounds the projects in terms of the success that they've had. And so they're kind of on board.
Rachael McNally:I think a lot of our clients, whether it be single res or developers, are design educated to a certain extent. They know what they want. They appreciate good design, and they know what we do. They're not coming completely blank and starting from scratch. They're coming because, yeah, they've seen the work that we do.
Dave Sharp:And we
Karen Alcock:have a lot of trust.
Rachael McNally:Oh, I
Karen Alcock:was just gonna say our clients do give us a lot of trust. I mean, I sometimes it amazes me, but, you know, I mean, you know, like, especially on the dialing, sometimes sometimes clients are just like, we trust you. Get on with it, you know. And you're really hardly touching base with them. It's not that often, but, you know, it is surprising that as you've been you know, as you build your reputation in the industry, you do get more trust from clients, which allows you lots more flexibility and responsibility as well.
Karen Alcock:I mean, we don't take that for granted. Do you know, we're not sort of, oh, yeah. Let's just go do this and that. We do try to keep the balance. And I suppose that's one of the things with what we do because our work is we're really interested in doing good housing.
Karen Alcock:Right? We're not interested, we we I mean we're doing crazy projects at the moment and, you know, houses worth 1,000,000 of dollars, but our core work is actually in that sort of middle class, probably people in their mid thirties and up who are looking to find themselves somewhere to live, you know, this is in the multi res, where you're trying to provide good quality housing at that sort of middle class level. I say middle class because unfortunately with housing affordability, I mean who can afford houses? But it's that sort of level where, and we used to call it like, was a bit like buying a Golf, right? Maybe not so much anymore, but 5 years ago every architect would drive a Golf around because, you know, it was a pretty good car and it didn't cost a fortune and it had, you know, you knew it wasn't going to break down and it had a little bit of design.
Karen Alcock:And and that's the sort of thing that we used to talk about because, you know, if you can buy yourself a really nice apartment, but it's not too glitzy, but you can afford it and it gets you in there, that's a great market to be in. I mean, ultimately it's the sort of market that if we were off to buy an apartment we would also be in as well. So we like being in there, in that sort of middle ground where you can really offer something that perhaps other people may not aspire to, you know, I mean, I, I think Nightingale has come on at a similar, you know trying to plug into that market as well. I mean there's a few developers in that market but that's really our core when it comes to apartments and we like it, you know, that that works well for us.
Dave Sharp:I guess that is being strategic in a way about positioning yourself in almost thinking like a developer in a way you've identified an end kind of user segment. You're thinking about the sort of strata of the market that you wanna be in, in terms of that sort of a you're kind of on the same page about I guess like where the project is sort of aiming to be in the market?
Karen Alcock:Yeah, I think, I think once again people are coming to us because they know what we do.
Dave Sharp:Yep.
Karen Alcock:And I don't want to sort of undervalue the sort of work that we do because it does very much, and I just like code back to the very beginning, One of the things about the near metro work when I, you know, started there in the, it was 97, was that, you know, the work that they were doing was, you know, classically their sites might be next to a tip. In fact they had a couple of houses that were next to tips. Yeah. Like, or in lanes, or in these really undesirable locations. Right?
Karen Alcock:And then they would do these amazing houses that no one else would do, you know, and instead of thinking, oh, I'm gonna do a development and I'm gonna sell it and I'm gonna keep it in plasterboard, I'm gonna do this and that, They were always like purple and copper everywhere, and completely crazy in lots of ways, but people lapped it up because they wanted that sort of, they wanted that design, the idea of design in their houses, right? And they always used to have funny little details. And I suppose that's the thing, it it's harder and harder to do that, but that is something we're quite interested in. How do you take this thing? Often you're you've got a plasterboard box, right?
Karen Alcock:Because that's how a multi res is designed, but how can you get those little bits of joy or detail in there, that when we people walk in there they go, oh wow, this is this is great, you know, this is not what I expected. And I suppose that, so there's this history of trying to, you're still delivering perhaps the same volume or area, but how can you really make that that little bit more special? I mean some of the things we might do is like well, we don't put levers on doors often, we just do pulls with magnets, because you know as soon as you touch something that's not regular, you start to think about how you're occupying the space, right? You know you add these little bits of joy into something that's actually quite standard, and that is, that that in itself brings a bit of layering into housing, you know, rather than, you know, marble or whatever you've just seen in the block. You know we were, I mean I know appreciate that's relatively common now, but I think, you know, we were probably doing timber decks on balconies with steps, you know, I would have said we probably were one of first people doing that because we were looking for ideas of dealing with waterproofing, but also creating something that didn't feel like, you know, your average apartment, you know, and and leveraging those ideas where you can, you know, you're selling to the developer and the builder an upside because it helps with maintenance, but then you're also getting for the occupants something that feels a bit special, you know, so they're the sorts of things that we still really try to look at, and and pitch.
Dave Sharp:It's interesting. Some of those elements that kind of add to that sense of quality and meaning for, like, the occupants. But I think sometimes architects maybe feel I guess they have this sense that you can't pitch anything that feels kind of nice or in any way kind of nonessential or gratuitous to a project, like it will just disappear at some point. Or if the case is maybe the whole thing is just a big misunderstanding about how developers think, maybe they're not there to kind of take out these elements just as a rule, you know?
Rachael McNally:Well, we know that not everything is going to get in. That's just how it is, but then there are parts of the projects that we hold onto or that are really important and that we will push for and we will fight for until the end. But then know that there are other parts that that's not going to matter in 10 years or we can let go of that, to get the other things across the line. So knowing where to allocate the time and money and energy, and what to fight for that really will change the project in the end and the other things that we're like, okay, fair.
Karen Alcock:But the builder, you know a developer will do whatever you like if it falls into the budget, you know. I mean it's like, I always, it's not, it's not that they're going out there and saying we must BM or pay you manage everything out of a project. What they're actually saying is, you know, to make this stack up and, and, be able to deliver to my investors, and the bank and whatever, there's only so much money. Right? And therefore this is where this idea of design smarts come in.
Karen Alcock:It's if they can't afford it, and I mean, you know, let's say we've all done our feasibilities and our cost plans and whatever, and we get there, you know, to tender stage and costs have gone up 10%, we've got to save 10% out of the project. And I think sometimes architects think, oh there's all my design ideas done, it's all going to be shit, let's just, you know, I don't care anymore. Right? And we would say, okay, no, it's like my own house, right, I have to try and get 10% out of this, and you know, I can do that. You've gotta be, you've gotta be going there with, with the half full glass and saying, nope, it's a challenge, it's designed smart, how can we make this happen?
Karen Alcock:Right? Now that may be going from linings, you know say, I
Dave Sharp:don't know,
Karen Alcock:timber linings to plasterboard with colour, right? But you've got to be able to put, I think our job as architects is about using our skills to deliver for the budgets right?
Dave Sharp:Now you're not going to
Karen Alcock:start a project if you think it's not going to stack up at all, but we don't win every battle, you know, you know, there's lots of, and it's strategy, it's communication, it's, you know, I'm much more headstrong than Rachel is and probably a lot more brash. Rachel's we call her the velvet sledgehammer because she's much more, I'll be like, you know, getting pissed off because something won't happen, and Rachel will be able to smooth it over and probably make it happen, you know, and this is where it's quite good having of people to work. You know, there's personalities involved.
Dave Sharp:I'm interested in how you sort of see the makeup of the market for the sorts of developers that you like to work with. I mean, in the Melbourne market, for example, would there only be a handful of companies that you would kind of consider to be sort of at the right scale, the right level of the market, the right design orientation to be relevant to you guys and and you potentially work with, or is the market bigger than that? Is it quite sort of widespread? And there's a lot of sort of different people and a lot of options in terms of clients that are out out there in the market?
Karen Alcock:I think that there's a handful of people who probably work in the area that we're interested. There's some smaller players perhaps who haven't, you know, made the market yet, so there's probably aspirational developers that we may not know, but I'd say probably 5 to 10, establish 10 if you're lucky. And I think you do, you might have people who do similarside work, but they might be more bayside, or you know, and then that's a, that's a different market to what we do working in. Not to say that we're anti theft, but you know we're probably more in a city, yeah.
Rachael McNally:And I suppose. Or second ring of suburbs.
Karen Alcock:Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose we are also interested in, looking at social housing as well, just as observers of that I suppose type of building. I mean there's some really good ones, but there's also some that perhaps lack a little bit of care, and we think that we could add some of our, using our experience, and our commitment, I think we could add some value to those sorts of projects. Just because we care, we're small, it's hands on, and you've really, you know, you're not dealing with a large, a large business where everybody's separated, even if you are dealing with, you know, project architect on a job, Rachel and I will be very much involved in in what the outcome will be, and I think that's also important when you're dealing at this sort of scale of projects.
Rachael McNally:Yeah we're intentionally the size we are. Yeah. Compact 8, 10, 12 people at any one time to make sure that we can be across projects and jump in and out when we need to, and, that everyone else in the office knows what's going on on all the projects as well. So it's a studio environment where everyone's talking about the projects and offering ideas along the way.
Dave Sharp:From your experience working in the sort of the multi res space, I mean, do you feel like there's a size of practice you need to kind of be at for it to work and make sense, or do you think any size practice can kinda get involved in that sort of level?
Karen Alcock:I think it's experience, not necessarily size.
Dave Sharp:Size. Okay. So that's more important.
Karen Alcock:Yep. I mean, it's really risky, Complex. Complex.
Dave Sharp:Risky for you guys as the architects as well?
Karen Alcock:Yeah. I think so. I mean, it's, you know, everybody's trying to especially when there's a lot of pressure, you know, in innovated contracts, the builders feel exposed because there's a lot of pressure on the builders under novated contracts, and then they have to work with whoever the architect or the consultant team is. And they may not necessarily think that, you know, they're the best people to do the job or whatever, you know, so, yeah, there's a lot of pressure from the builder on architects to perform, and I think you could easily get yourself unstuck if you didn't know how to deliver these buildings. I mean I suppose I've been doing them for about I don't know 25 years or whatever it is, but you know I think of some of the projects I did maybe 15, 20 years ago and I think no one knew what they were doing, I mean not even me the builders didn't know what they were doing.
Karen Alcock:When you think about how how construction changes, when I started we were doing a lot of block work, party walls, you know, in fact a lot of the buildings were double brick. This is with Neos, there was this real commitment to these sort of really solid buildings, and now they're all lightweight, and you know it's even, you know how much people have understood precast from what they used to be. You know just experience The first precast building you do you look at it and you think, oh shit, I thought that was going to be so nice and crisp, but you know, of course it it's it takes a lot of work to get those outcomes, so I think you need experience to get the quality outcomes.
Rachael McNally:And the broad skill set. I mean, from start to finish it takes us such a long time to procure a building and all the different skills that you need along the way, and very rarely can one person do everything, so being able to have experience, but then the team for people to jump in at different phases throughout that process Yeah. To make sure that you get the result at the end. Mhmm.
Karen Alcock:And also using technology. Like we're now we're in Archicad. Our models are being used regularly by subcontractors for everything really. And you think you start a job, you might start a job and it might take 3 years to get it onto site, and how people treat your model from what it was 3 years ago to now even is just you know, the industry is moving really, really quickly, and, you know, you've got to be very nimble I think as a as a smaller practice or as a young practitioner to be able to be on top of all of those things, you know.
Dave Sharp:It really feels like it would be difficult if you hadn't worked in a practice before doing this sort of work, if you had worked in single residential, then started a practice of your own and started doing single residential, then decided, okay, time to do multi res, it would probably be really hard. It sounds very specialized.
Karen Alcock:I reckon it'll blow your mind.
Rachael McNally:You go from 1 client and their needs, and then you have 70 apartments with 70 purchases and purchaser changes, and no apartment is the same anymore, and everything changes. Yeah.
Karen Alcock:I think that's why New South Wales, you know they're really trying to crack down on you know who can work on multi res, you know you're coming from Perth, but I think there is some value in that. I think it's very easy for architects to think, yeah let's get into multi res.
Dave Sharp:We've gotta keep these overconfident architects out of, out of our housing.
Karen Alcock:Yeah, yeah we're really overconfident. No, I mean, I think, I don't, I mean I would encourage any, I just think you've got to be really careful. I mean first of all it's a lot of resources that goes into these buildings, right? So, we have an obligation as a profession to make sure these buildings are good, and there's a lot of shit words out there, you know. And that means also having the confidence on-site to to go, you know, in discussions, sometimes toe to toe with the builder, to make sure that the quality's there.
Rachael McNally:But you're not just designing for the purchaser, we're designing for the city as well. These are big buildings that you see and experience whether you have bought into the project or not, so, you know, there is that commitment that you need to have Yeah. To the broader city and urban environment. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:You mentioned affordable housing as, like, an area of interest. I guess, like, if it's a similar sort of project type, you can bring many of those skills over. I I hear a lot of practices wanting to go from single res to affordable housing these days. And after listening to you guys talking sort of feel like that's a bit scarier than I probably thought it was 40 minutes ago in terms of in terms of what would be involved in making that jump.
Karen Alcock:Well, naivety is a wonderful thing.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Exactly. You almost you almost don't wanna listen to this episode if you're interested in this sector. Do you have a sense that developers, builders in the private multiray side is very much under pressure, but perhaps because of all the conversation around, housing shortage and government plans to build more housing, offer more affordable housing, do you sense that that area is potentially gonna open up a bit more and have maybe a little bit less pressure on it because it will have the government involved in some way. I mean, do you have any, any sort of secret background info about, about anything that's gonna happen in that space?
Karen Alcock:I I think everybody has to pay the same amount to get buildings built, do you know? Yeah. It doesn't matter if you're a private developer or you're affordable housing, I'm not sure there's such a thing as affordable housing now and I say that because building is expensive. A commercial developer is struggling to deliver a project, So the government, if the government wants to deliver that project, how do they make it cheaper? I mean, there's just an economy there that is really difficult to justify.
Karen Alcock:You still have to build the building. You can only cut so much out of the interiors.
Dave Sharp:It would actually be like magic, wouldn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It would require some element of magicianess to, to sort of make a government project cheaper than what a developer can achieve, right?
Karen Alcock:You need buy in, you need commitment from, you know, you can't expect a developer to deliver affordable housing, I think it's almost impossible, and therefore you you're looking at other models such as build to rent and, you know, because it's all about money, it's all about getting you funding, so people look for models where they can get funding for it. But then build to rent is 20% more to rent than normal rental, you know, so there's a real pressure here in the market where banks will fund the more expensive delivery option. So I think you know hopefully, I think it's got to come from government because government is is probably the only people who have the power to make change, whether that be quicker planning or less tax or whatever, if you if you wanna deliver affordable housing.
Dave Sharp:We're a 1000000 miles away from marketing here, so I might need to turn this around and start heading us in that direction. The reason I really want to get into that side of the conversation is just because I think sometimes building your credibility in this market, if you're trying to get into kind of multi rails, like sometimes it's just nice to hear the way people that are in the space think and talk and what they say and what they prioritize. And that's what I found useful listening to the 2 of you is just sort of how you communicate that balance between design quality and, you know, keeping the priorities of the occupant, but also developer and builder and the complexities, like, in mind. I think it's just useful to hear because I guess it kind of gives people maybe a bit of an idea of how they can maybe navigate that that conversation. I don't know.
Dave Sharp:I seem to think that that's quite important in terms of how you communicate, but maybe it's maybe it's not as important as I'm I'm kinda getting at. Maybe there's something else. Do you think there's something that sort of trumps that in terms of it? Is it just experience and problem solving and, and that sort of thing and just getting on with it is what I'd expect you guys to maybe maybe say, but but, is there anything that comes to mind?
Karen Alcock:Maybe just the scale of our practice, maybe. I I mean, I think that that can be quite, especially when you're dealing with smaller hands on developers, it's quite nice to be dealing with, whether it be the director, associate director
Rachael McNally:I guess they're talking to the decision maker, doesn't have to go through a few steps before they can get an answer, so I feel like the turnaround with clients that we deal with is quite fast paced, so we're able to to stay on top of things and keep the momentum and keep things moving.
Karen Alcock:Which might come a little bit from, I mean certainly there's work that we get because people are interested in the the original Neo Metro model of builder, developer, architect, and, and, and they're interested in that, blurring of the lines, and I think that we can provide that, whereas maybe other architects that they're more, have a slightly more corporate or rigid structure, and and I suppose that may be something that that's of interest to people as well.
Dave Sharp:How does that work, just quickly, in terms of that blurring of the lining? Just because I wanna make sure I understood that really clearly just in terms of that ability to I think you kind of mentioned it earlier, this idea taken the traditional structure and then made adjustments to it to kind of really suit it to this sector. What does that involve? What does that look like, that sense of opening up the practice to not being this completely separate rigid structure, but going, you know, we kind of join you as and and form, like, this little Neo Metro esque kind of blob with you guys.
Karen Alcock:How eloquently put. I mean I think it's just it's really about communication you know, it's about whether it be getting on the phone, whether it be inviting them in to look at the models on the screens, I don't know it's just it's creating a personal atmosphere where it's scribbling on a piece of paper, you know, it's, you know, we work with developers too who often bring blue beam plans in, I mean we're not dealing with dummies here, you know, you're dealing with people who understand how to do a feasibility, who are very proactive about looking because you know lots of developers are doing their own groundwork before they come and talk to us, so understanding and you know the first time people do that you're like, that's so annoying, but you do work with that. You've got to learn how to work with them in that way, and you know add to what or build on what they already have, you know. So I think it's that sort of engagement and understanding it's a two way street. We don't have all the answers, right?
Karen Alcock:Maybe you know sometimes clients come to you with much better ideas than you've got just because you know, they're coming from a different perspective. So, yeah, I think that's one of the things that perhaps we offer. I'm sure lots of other practices do as well, but I think if if you're looking for how we engage with these practitioners, these other developers, it's that real engagement, that sort of roll your sleeves up.
Rachael McNally:And breaking down the formal communication, it is opening up the studio, sitting around the computer together rather than that finished product and going back and forth and, you know, we have clients who come in with amazing references that they've seen, you know, and they set a really high benchmark of what we need to produce and what we need to come up with. So I think they're always questioning our ideas, which is a good thing because then we're questioning internally, and, you know, you get a much better end result because you've worked it over and over with the entire team, not just us within the studio.
Dave Sharp:It's funny because it kinda sounds like a residential project for, like, a homeowner. Yeah. So I'm listening to it going, that all sounds pretty normal, but then I realized I'm thinking more about designing a house for somebody. And I'm guessing, like, that maybe in terms of what some other architects that are bigger or different sort of corporate structures do in the developer space, maybe they're they're kind of really different to that. What's the contrast?
Dave Sharp:Your way of working is obviously appealing to clients and they're finding it like a refreshing kind of approach to be working that closely together. But in terms of what they experience maybe elsewhere, what does that contrast look like? What's a different way that practices kind of approach the multi risk sector and developers?
Karen Alcock:Well I think just the larger UK, you've got to have more structure, you've got more risk in your practice, you've got more financial, not to say everybody's got financial pressures especially at the moment, but I think that, we have a little bit of flexibility, you know because we're running a fairly tight little team here. It just gives us a little bit more flexibility to go beyond the the day to day, I suppose. That that's it. And I I I look I don't think we're the only practice who who does this sort has this sort of relationship, but it's, look it's how we like to work, that's probably the one thing, but you know ultimately these projects are all delivered through personalities as well, and and you know you've got somebody like Rachel who's often at the front with me as her backup, you know who's able to deliver you know a really professional service as well, and and able to be responsive with me you know providing some of the other complementary skills. I think you know you've got to have broad teams and different personalities to deal with all clients, and in the developer market I think we're able to offer quite an interesting balance between the 2 of us.
Karen Alcock:I think it's also it's not it's fairly unusual to have a a female led practice doing this type of work primarily.
Dave Sharp:Just, I mean, kind of changing topic and sort of looking, I suppose, more than the brand side of things because I think one thing I've heard of picked up so far is that I wanna sort of separate marketing from getting clients because I think those 2 things, they don't have to be connected side by side. It just depends on the practice and what they're trying to achieve. And I think for you guys, in terms of the recent brand refresh and things that you've done, which we're gonna get a little bit more into the detail of, I expect that it wasn't driven by the sense of, oh, we need to get the phone ringing. You know, in fact, I'm 99.5% sure it had nothing to do with that, which is great. I'm just interested in maybe talking through kind of the idea behind that.
Dave Sharp:Was it just kind of time to sort of refresh things, update things, sort of review where the practice is heading and look to the future and all of that good stuff.
Rachael McNally:Yeah. I think it was time to stop and assess where we were and decide where we wanted to go.
Dave Sharp:And
Rachael McNally:I think it was great for the 2 of us to sit down and discuss that and really critically assess who we were as a studio and who we wanted to be.
Karen Alcock:It was really about confirming the identity, you know, as much for me, but also for the staff.
Rachael McNally:And the whole studio. Do you have something that represented the whole studio?
Karen Alcock:That we all had ownership in it, because I know, I mean, yeah, sure people work for us, but you know, we we wanted them to feel like they were part of it, that the name had room in it for more than just, the directors, you know, because you can't deliver these projects without your whole team. And so, yeah, we wanted really focusing on on that. And also to give yeah. Who are we? This is who we are.
Karen Alcock:You know, that we really want it, and we didn't feel like our existing branding did that particularly well.
Rachael McNally:And it wasn't a quick process either. It took us quite some time from start to finish of having those initial conversations, talking about do we want a completely new name, do we wanna you know leverage what we've got, How do we you know, it was a full team sit down over many different conversations of where we want to go and what felt natural to us, in that next progression.
Dave Sharp:Mhmm. Yeah. I imagine the name was, like, the super difficult part. But in some senses, I sort of feel like the name's probably the least interesting part, not like respectfully. I think it's really cool, but I think what's actually really stood out to me from the the branding is like particularly the messaging on the website, how tightly curated it has all become.
Dave Sharp:I wasn't so familiar with what you're putting out there previously, but I think like compared to, you know, most practices to be able to sort of boil it down to a few kind of key statements and to see that font size start to increase and that word count decrease and what we're saying get kind of simpler and simpler is bloody awesome, and I really like to see it. So, like, to be able to have kind of MA and co projects are designed to be engaging and memorable just like, bam, right there on the website. I love it.
Rachael McNally:Well, that's for us as well as much as it is for anyone looking at the website. We don't want, you know, big chunks of text. It's who are we with one liners that everyone in the office
Dave Sharp:agrees with. That would have taken so much reducing, reducing, reducing to get there. I bet there was a lot of different
Karen Alcock:I think we worked with UP on the on the branding but we had worked with them before, and I have a reputation for being very pithy as you might you know, in like I don't punchy. Yeah. I don't embellish very much maybe to my detriment, and they got that, and that was the thing that was the best. They they sort of came to us at the first, meeting and said you need a manifesto, and I'm like yep, we want a manifesto, that sounds perfect, right? And that's basically where it came from, now we're just like don't stuff around, you know, you you know who you are, but you do struggle to sort of articulate that more fully, so don't fight that, you know, it's an expression of of how you operate.
Karen Alcock:So, and they they were able just to bring in, you know, we wanted, we looked at other people to work with and it was just great to work with someone who we'd worked with 4 or 5 years ago, who knew us, who then came back and said, we're we're gonna do it slightly differently this time because we understand who you are. And they came they came with ideas that were like, oh, yeah. Perfect. You know, they sort of, set up a series. The first presentation was like 4 columns which was broken down into things like urban design, architectural expression, whatever, and they put the words underneath it, do you know?
Karen Alcock:So although we've done a lot of butcher paper sessions, but we didn't do that with UP, they just said how about this, this is what we think, and we're like, yeah.
Rachael McNally:They understood the evolution and where, the practice had come from, to to where it is now. And I think that they came with a level of confidence and backed themselves in what they were putting forward, which then we were just on board from the get go. Because Yeah. It was easy to understand, you know, the mark pretty much from the beginning didn't change a lot because everything that they put forward, it just felt like they already got us without needing to have this giant briefing session over multiple days, they just understood.
Karen Alcock:And we, we, you know, I mean people probably if they hear this might go, you know I'm no very good bullshitter, I'm pretty good at talking, but I mean, you know, it's it's very black and white. And they, you know, one of the things that they did they gave us some words for sustainability. I mean sustainability is is, you know, there's lots of these talk this talk about sustainability, but, you know, there's also lots of pressures on it. Right? And they came and they under sustainability, they said supportive, continuous, and viable.
Karen Alcock:And they sort of got us on that because it's like, you know sustainability isn't just one thing, and it's not just about a building, and they just captured it, and we just thought they get us, you know, there's this this is how we like to operate, how do you articulate that? And and we were just like, yeah, that they they understand where we're coming from.
Rachael McNally:Less is more.
Karen Alcock:Yeah, less is more, and also like, you know, it's not a perfect world, and sometimes you have to aspire to these benchmarks that are not quite as black and white as we'd all like them to be, but if you can achieve them, you know, you can do great works.
Dave Sharp:I often find that working with clients on this sort of brand definition work at the beginning of, like, a marketing strategy project that the choice of words is so important. And it's sort of almost half the battle is to really think about going beyond these sort of broad catchall terms like sustainability and really trying to define your practice's point of view, your unique kind of take on that area. And sometimes that might boil down to either a different word or a few words. What was it? Viable, continuous, and Supportive.
Dave Sharp:Supportive. Those are 3 extremely unique words that aren't traditionally connected with sustainability, but the idea absolutely makes sense. So it really does function really, really well. That idea of, like, starting with the manifesto and starting with those sort of positioning words, I think, really makes sense. And I think sometimes branding presentations begin with these kind of, like they seem to be about defining the brand's personality a little bit more, and it's kind of like, it's all a bit generic.
Dave Sharp:And I think it sort of becomes quite interchangeable between a lot of different businesses. But it sounds like in this case, focusing kind of on the work in a sense, it seems like a lot of what's on your website is about how do we describe our architectural approach or our work. And that sounds kind of obvious. Right? But I think sometimes people avoid that or don't do that.
Dave Sharp:Is that what you guys kinda felt like you were doing? It's like we're thinking we have the work in mind. We have the the spaces, the buildings, like, that's kind of what we're sort of concentrating on?
Karen Alcock:We like to deliver buildings. Right? Mhmm. So we're not necessarily, you know, writing lots of text about our work. We want our work to be judged by the projects, and but that is that becomes really hard when you're doing a website because, you know, like someone asked you about it and you're like, oh, I don't know, I think it's really good.
Karen Alcock:That's you.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Yeah.
Karen Alcock:You know, and so yeah, we definitely wanted it to talk about the projects, and we we, you know, maybe we're skeptical sometimes you get projects and you see them in the media, and then you go visit them and you think, oh my God that's nothing like the photograph right? We, but we actually like to think that our work does deliver in the flesh as much as it does in the photograph because we are about making buildings, you know. We we understand that people are living in these things, or walking around them, and actually, you know, that's the thing that we wanted to come out in the, in the website that they are real things, you know. So it's still a bit of a battle, I still think that, I mean we're really happy with how the website has come up and how curated it is, but it's really we find it really hard to capture the the projects effectively in the imagery, and
Rachael McNally:and because sometimes you can't capture the space, and a photo will never pick up on all of those things that you've worked on throughout that process, all those decisions that you've made, so I mean you can capture it as much as you can and it's a great record of building but it can't do it all. Mhmm. But I do think that how the website has come together is really, you know, done in the best way that that we could have. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:I think taking on the the challenge of describing the work, it is hard, like you pointed out, and therefore, I think some people just like to avoid it. And even when they go through this process professionally, they'll tend to gravitate more towards these kind of like feel good concepts about the way that we provide service or interact with clients. So it'll kind of always tend to be like collaboration and reflecting each client in our work, their dreams and aspirations. And I don't know, just like listening or something. Like it sort of becomes about those things that we think we're quite good at in terms of like how we interact with clients.
Dave Sharp:But I feel like what you end up with is, is fairly like, it's not very interesting. It doesn't really resonate in terms of, like, when you hear that from a company, from a practice. Whereas I think when you really go to the work and you sort of say like the work is about this, this, and this, and maybe it won't even be clear when you first start the exercise, but just through the exercise, it starts to kind of be revealed. I feel like that's where you make some pretty good progress.
Rachael McNally:I think it was part of this process though. We sort of said that the previous website and messaging maybe was, that's why I needed the refresh, because it was a little bit confused, what are we putting out there, every image that's been taken of a project uploaded to the website, so it was really to pause and think about what we were doing and critically look at those projects, and think about how we wanted to talk about them.
Dave Sharp:You did a cull. Right? You you Marie Kondo ed your your portfolio, didn't you?
Karen Alcock:Not too much. I mean,
Rachael McNally:we there's still an archive there with those
Dave Sharp:There is an archive, but I feel like you've been quite in terms of what you're saying just then, Rachel, like, we were putting everything up there, every image. We were just putting it up there and just sort of putting it out there unfiltered, but without really a thought to what's in, what's out, what are we trying to show, what are we not trying to show, that sort of thing.
Karen Alcock:Yeah. Well, also, you know, we're at a point where you'd almost have to get a lot of it rephotographed for consistency, you know, the fashion of architectural photography Yeah. And tone.
Dave Sharp:Some of your earlier stuff is starting to look a little
Rachael McNally:Well, you know, a lot
Karen Alcock:of the stuff of the neo stuff is lots of blue sky, well that is not on the, you know, the, you know, it's just, so there is that that we have to be a little bit mindful of, and we've tried to blend it, to a point without getting too obsessive, but also it's like, you know, there's a history of a practice here, and sometimes projects need to be archived or or not on the website, not because we're ashamed of them, I mean the first, you know there's a lot of great projects that, you know, I worked on 25 years ago that I'm still proud of, but are they relevant to who the practice is today? Maybe not. So we don't necessarily have them up front, but, you know, I think it's a real battle of, you know, architectural photography and representation of architecture is so photo based at the moment, sometimes it's more about the photographer than it is about the work, it's such a battle, and often projects that you see that are very well known are only defined by one photograph. And so that doesn't mean they're good architecture, you know it's just a battle for us to try and, and how do you play that game, but also how do you, you know stay true to the fact that we're really interested in producing buildings, you know so there's a little bit of a battle that we have.
Karen Alcock:I think we've got the balance reasonably, we're comfortable with it at the moment, but the website ultimately for us is probably something that our staff use as a bit of a resource, you know, obviously people come and have a look at it, I'm not sure people really read the text very much, so it's, it's, it's almost like a a folio of our work, it's not, I don't know if we get much work out of it. I think if you've got a staff member who starts with us and wants to know where we sit, they can look at the website and we, you know, it's almost like our mission statement. Our website becomes our mission statement that everybody can look at and say, okay, that's who, okay I'll get an idea of who Emma and Co are, I wanna get under the surface, but at least we've got this idea of of of being proud of the brand if you like, you know. I mean, it makes me laugh, we've got site jackets, people walk around in their site jackets in the office with the branding on it, It's like, yeah. Go wear Maine Coo.
Karen Alcock:You know? Yeah.
Dave Sharp:I know it isn't the whole the whole idea of a brand identity. It's meant to sort of reinforce what you're trying to say about your approach and values. It doesn't have to do so much. But, I mean, if you're trying to sort of say to clients that we like things to have a bit of character, a bit of joy to them, but also keep it simple, That's pretty much in a nutshell kind of what your brand identity is doing. Right?
Dave Sharp:So it's just about being consistent to that,
Rachael McNally:isn't it?
Karen Alcock:One other
Rachael McNally:thing that we decided to do with the website, which we hadn't done before was include plans and some drawings within those projects because it is more than just the image and the text. It's trying to give a whole picture on on the project, and I think that that has really, made those project sections much more engaging, and you can really understand the project as a whole.
Karen Alcock:And it's consistent with our work. I think it, I think the brand identity does link back to our work, which is effective, you know, which is simple using, you know, it's not black and white, it's all fairly, sort of very low key, but there's a real there's some joy in it. And that's what we and surprise. One of the things I love about UP, I came across them when they started doing the work for Malone Globe, and this was about, it was probably about 7 years ago, and it was completely chaotic but I loved it because it was like it was trying to take a chance and they were there were no rules, and it was a bit awkward. It was a bit awkward, and we, you know, this sort of the awkwardness of the unexpected we quite liked, and, I think, you know, we've both got more refined with our work as we've gone on, but there's still this sense of, you know, the little unexpected element, the simple things done well, you know, you don't have to over embellish, but you can surprise and delight through things that are unexpected, and that so that that that's also where I think where we, you know, where we we hit it, we're really happy with how it's been delivered.
Dave Sharp:In terms of the messaging you mentioned earlier, I don't think people really read the words. I I'd say mostly that's probably true, but I think, like, putting words on your website, assuming that most people won't, is probably a good idea, and you've done it that way. If they're going to, at least they're probably gonna read your words because there's not that many of them. Yeah. They're all kind of there for a reason.
Dave Sharp:If you had sort of paragraphs of just like a waffle, like, yes, guaranteed no one's reading that stuff, but, like, a few sort of succinct things. Also, just kinda curious about Morehouse in particular, and they probably have seen Morehouse, like, all over Instagram and that sort of thing, you know, Derek's beautiful photos. But just interested in terms of I know we're really getting into the photography weeds here, but I'm noticing that there's sort of these two sets of images of Moriarty House. There's sort of furnished stage 1 with all this, like, incredible collection of furniture and records and chakkas on the shelves, and there's all this kind of good stuff. And then there's also this sort of other side to the set, which is much more kind of stuck and sort of pulled back with maybe a single chair here and there or or, you know, a pendant light or something.
Dave Sharp:It's very sort of restrained. But what I find interesting is how complementary those sort of two sets of different sort of flavors of images are. I'm sure the reason for that is some sort of practical thing about Derek was only available on this day, and then it was raining on that other day, and then the car broke down. Like, I'm sure there's some, like, stupid story behind why we have these different images, but I am curious. You've got this sort of staged and unstaged shoot that really worked nicely together.
Dave Sharp:What's the idea behind that?
Rachael McNally:I think that that is practical, and he went down a couple of times to take the photos, but it is something that we talk about in the office a lot about, you know, buildings are buildings to a certain point and then they become homes, you know, Jeff moved in, he bought all of his furnishings and curated the space and that's when it comes to life, you know, it's beautiful in those early shots with the single armchair next to the fireplace, but it really, you know, it really comes alive once all of his stuff is in there and the space becomes occupied.
Karen Alcock:And we talk about that, you know, especially when you're doing multi residential work, I mean we don't, we we we deliver spaces that people occupy, and you know we like the idea, it's it's you know it's something we talked about with UP about photographing our work unfurnished and then furnished, because we only chaperone projects through until they're furnished, so photographing them unfurnished is actually quite interesting because that's what we're responsible for. Yeah and and that's to be, you know, to it's all it's all about ego as well, like
Dave Sharp:do you
Karen Alcock:know, so if you can sort of accept that you're responsible to that point and then you you capture that, I think we think that stuff quite interesting and it's something that, you know, moving forward we're quite keen to to, capture. Do you know photographs of kitchens with pots and little things of plants? It's like well maybe you don't have to do that. Maybe we can actually just record, do it's almost like we're recording the spaces and they still have a lot of value.
Dave Sharp:I like the idea of doing both and it not being an either or. That's actually great. I mean, I have the either or conversation all the time on the podcast where it's like, on the one hand, you've got people that have identified that if you strip everything back, then the concept and the kind of the qualities of the space will communicate more clearly. It's a bit more reduced kind of palette. There's less distraction, but then there's the other camp, which is like, yeah, but the client is like, they, then you start to see where did this design come from and who is it responding to?
Dave Sharp:And it's also like, you can kind of place yourself in it to a degree. Going back to the non people category, they're also like, well, if there's no one in it, then anybody can kind of project themselves into it. I like what you're sort of saying of like, hey, let's just potentially do 2 shots extremely consistently so they don't clash with each other. I was actually amazed looking at it. I was like, oh, on the one hand, I'm seeing it empty, then the other it's full of stuff.
Dave Sharp:And, like, for whatever reason, it's not bothering me. You might have actually stumbled across the solution to this problem that everybody's got, but I think the solution does require 2 photo shoots. So we are talking about more maybe work there, but still that's nice because you usually do wanna come back for that second shoot later when the landscape has really, like, developed as well. So maybe that's the kind of the client and landscape shoot is the 2nd round, and then the first one is just the space.
Karen Alcock:And also you know like you sort of even for us as a practice right, like what let's say what we're delivering are the buildings, It's good to see those in their raw form, right, and actually see what are you actually delivering? It's easy to cover up something dodgy with a pot plant or a couch. So actually to have everything, you know, to have it raw is actually, it's good to have that even to talk to the staff about.
Dave Sharp:You guys definitely are about doing it yourself, right? I mean, that seems to be important to be involved and to be a bit hands on with, you know, what comes out of the practice and how you're seen and what's read and what images are seen and, you know, how these things work. Right?
Karen Alcock:I think at this scale, I mean, it's, yeah we, we're not manic, but there is value in curating, you know.
Rachael McNally:And we have opinions and we know, we know what we want, sometimes it just takes a little bit of time to do it yourself and project the way that you want to. We did have, you know, input from a lot of different creative people throughout this process and you know 9 times out of 10 we would stop and say, I think we need to look at this ourselves.
Karen Alcock:And when you get the right collaborator it's fine, you know, but when you, you know if it's a bit 5050 it's a bit like well, what are we paying all this money for? You know it is a little bit of, it's about, you know, like any, any, I'm sure the graphic designers think we must be the most annoying clients, you know in lots of ways, like it's always a bit of attention, but I think sometimes you can't delegate, sometimes you do need to take the lead. At least until you get the foundations right, and then you've got a, you know, you actually have to build those relationships before you can, you know, give away some of that stuff.
Rachael McNally:Or in house, we have a lot of, you know, the teams that have really good skills that we can draw on, rather than getting someone else to do it, and they understand the DNA of what we're trying to put out there as well. So whether it's text or drawing or whatever it might be, we can draw on people within the team. It's finding the time to make that happen.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. And you've got your finger on the pulse of what's cool and what's going on, it feels like. I mean, you're saying earlier, Karen, like, talking about keeping up with sort of whatever the latest sort of trends are in photography. Like, you're aware of them even to the point where you also see how we sort of separate ourselves from them. We're like, we're considering that, we're thinking that through.
Dave Sharp:Whereas I feel like there's some, some practices out there that they're not interested in what's kind of going on on that side of things, like the communications and the imagery side of like the and the imagery side of, like, the architecture world. And they're just like, whatever. Like, somebody else needs to figure out this stuff for me. But it's something that's obviously interesting for you guys. So, I mean, that certainly is important.
Dave Sharp:Right? If you're gonna do this stuff yourself, you'd obviously wanna be pretty up to speed and and informed about what's going on, what what other architects are doing and that sort of stuff. Right?
Karen Alcock:I can't pay you. I mean, we've used, you know, the relationship with UP. I mean, we've commissioned photographs, we've done you know, there's other things that you're doing that add richness to the practice, which you couldn't necessarily do in house. So yeah. No.
Karen Alcock:It's it it adds value in lots of other ways. So, it does come a little bit, you know, working because of, you know, when we're at NEO, I was doing branding for project. I wasn't designing it, but, you know, you're managing the branding for project, you're talking to graphic designers, you know, there were a number of different, brand cycles that we did whilst I was there. So I suppose it is part of my DNA that I got from, from that stage of my career that I'm now, that I've brought on. I I must say, I I'm not saying this will be the only rebranding we do, but I do feel like, well, you know, it's really affirming.
Karen Alcock:10 years, let's
Rachael McNally:sit on this for a minute.
Karen Alcock:But you know, I am I am I do have restless feet, but I feel like, you know, this really feels like it reflects the practice where it is. Right? And, and it's something we can build on. And I think that's been really, really important for
Dave Sharp:us. Well, how I'd probably look at it would be the, the branding and the and the relationship with your branding people will be like a 10 year thing. Like you're saying, Rancho, where you probably won't, you will, like, incrementally change it, but getting professional help with that is the way to make it work. And last, I think, but I think like the, a lot of the work that you were doing there in making decisions about your choices about what you were gonna do with your branding and your imagery and your text and stuff, that's like brand strategy and marketing strategy, and that is something that you would wanna be reevaluating, like, every year, not from the ground up, but stuff changes, you know, like, what you wanna do changes, like, your market changes, your clients change, everything changes in, like, it's it's amazing how much things change in 12 months. I feel like it's not like you would lock the whole thing and be like, we're sticking to every aspect of this for the next 10 years.
Dave Sharp:There will be parts that we will look at and we'll adjust each year.
Rachael McNally:It's a good foundation.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. You've got the foundation, and now you've got the relationship with the people that can help to implement stuff, which I always find is the valuable thing about getting over that initial hump of, like, it's a lot of work to kind of go through a branding process with professional people. But then once you have them, you can do those little piecemeal things over time that you've got them there. You can talk to them and do these one off things. Right?
Dave Sharp:So it's really helpful.
Karen Alcock:And it also means keeping in touch with, you know, whether it be media or other thing, you know, local, international, understanding how work is being portrayed. You know, just trying to keep across all of that stuff as well. It's one of the nice things, you know, having some depth in in, you know, Rachel's my ages, but also with the other staff that you're always trying to you're not afraid of keeping things fresh and moving with how, you know, someone suggested we do TikTok and we're like, but then it's like, well of course you're gonna do TikTok. I mean, you know, like even though it might sound appalling, you you do need to be thinking about yeah. The world is moving and you must be you've gotta be responsive to it.
Karen Alcock:You choose how you do that, but you can't actually ignore it, you know, if you if you wanna see longevity in a practice.
Dave Sharp:Hey, guys. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it.
Karen Alcock:Thank you. Thanks, Dave.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Karen Olcock and Rachel McNally from MA and Co. If you'd like to learn more about their studio, you can visit madashco.au or follow them on Instagram atma_co.au. This episode of Office Talk was sponsored by Office Dave Sharp, a practice providing specialized marketing consultancy and strategy tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Based in Perth, the practice caters to a diverse range of clients around the world. To learn more about our process and book a consultation to discuss your practice, simply visit office dave sharp.com.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of office talk was edited by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling and engineered by James Eade of BHARD.
