Archier
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today is Chris Gilbert, a director of Archer, a Melbourne based practice known for creating design experiences that contribute to a better quality of life. Chris first appeared on Officetalk in August of 2022, and we are delighted to have him back on the show.
Dave Sharp:In this episode, Chris and I discuss the power of cultural narratives, such as current attitudes around the risks of building, and whether it's better for architects to try to push back against these ideas or accept these powerful beliefs and adapt our approach. We looked at how Archer identified a pain point in the design process, the endless hours spent pricing projects, then develop custom software to help speed up the process and drastically reduce the cost of the client. We also looked at how they started Candor, a prefabrication and advanced manufacturing company helping architects to make off-site construction faster, cheaper, and more accessible. And we discussed the impact that these moves towards automation, efficiency, and accessibility could have on the brand perception of Archer and architecture more broadly as it challenges the traditional exclusivity of residential architecture. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Chris Gilbert of Archer.
Dave Sharp:Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Chris Gilbert:Thank you, well it's great to be back. When how how long has it been?
Dave Sharp:Been, I don't know, 2021. It's been a few years. Been a big few years in residential architecture, hasn't it? It's like a lot of what's happening at the first point there. I reckon we were probably right at the the peak times of stuff popping off in kind of around that era.
Dave Sharp:Have you guys sort of noticed, you know, the residential world has kind of changing a fair bit over the last few years?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah. It's been a, challenging time. Interesting. You know, lots lots of change and just like, I guess, yeah.
Chris Gilbert:Interest rates, you know, the, I guess the cultural narrative behind building has changed in that time, which is interesting, which we should talk about because it's definitely something, I've been reflecting on. And, yeah, I guess, like, other things that Arch has been doing, like, obviously, that I think when we last spoke, we've we were just starting, manufacturing and off to that manufacturing business. So been leaning into that a bit, doing plenty of interesting stuff there. Been developing some software for the business, which we should talk about, maybe working on the business, doing things like that. And then, just generally, trying to find what the future will be really.
Chris Gilbert:It's been interesting. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Well, maybe starting with the kind of the residential side, because we were talking a bit about kind of the type of clients and type of projects you guys work on on that side of things. And you talk about then kind of the narrative shifting. What have you seen changing on that side of things?
Chris Gilbert:People are definitely more cautious now. They're a lot more, they're doing their due diligence, more thoroughly and really considering, you know, what they actually need. And I feel like, you know, we kind of you know, when we chatted on the phone the other day, we were kinda talking about this idea of, like, the kind of cultural vibe or cultural narrative of like, it doesn't seem exuberant at the moment, it seems much more considered, and people are being more thoughtful with the money they spend, which is, you know Sounds good. Being shipped. Yeah.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:I mean, that sounds like a positive. Right?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, you know, we found it challenging. There's definitely been a lot less work around.
Chris Gilbert:And that's been, I guess, a good time to reflect, you know, and then try to build a new business model around this new world. Because I think maybe everybody thought, interest rates will go up for a while and then come back down and then it will be back to the, you know, back to that same positive kind of environment or, yeah, I guess, like, an environment that's kind of, about doing more and about, you know, larger homes or, yep, you know, just just get it, getting into the kind of design side, but that's I don't I don't know if that world's gonna come back straight away. I think we're probably it's probably a much longer tail of this kind of conservative approach to money and design. The the tail effects of COVID can kind of shape kind of cultural cultural norms around construction and design. You know, I mean, maybe in the higher end, maybe it hasn't touched it so much.
Chris Gilbert:But definitely, in the space that we're in, I guess people are pretty, pretty concerned about the cost of building because that's in the media a lot. So there's just a lot of hesitation. So then we were like, well, you know, how do you, how do you kind of address that? And one strategy was to do have started kind of wing that was Archer prefab, which was much more about trying to de risk the process as much as possible by bringing more of the kind of cost certainty in house. So we've spent last few years kind of building some digital tools to help us do that.
Chris Gilbert:So that's been it's been a journey. It's definitely like something that I hadn't imagined us getting into this early on, but it's definitely, yeah, interesting.
Dave Sharp:Yeah.
Chris Gilbert:It's an interesting process.
Dave Sharp:I feel like we're gonna talk about prefab a bit, so might as well just go straight into it. In our last conversation, that was just very early stage. You were kind of talking about, like, at that point, you were just saying we're developing some parametric plug ins or you know, it was it was just like a little bit of a software kind of move and things like that. Talk us through the story of what's happened since, like, what is the project, and what did it involve to kind of get it off the ground?
Chris Gilbert:I guess, like, we were looking at our process, and we were like, okay. Most of our time is actually spent, especially in this market, like in an inflationary market where prices have seemed to continually go up, and it's definitely flat in flattening off now. But we were looking at that market of, like, an inflationary market. And we're like, how in this market, how can we work in a way that provides more confidence to us and also our clients? And when we worked at that looked at our workflow and where our time was going, most of our time is just spending redesign and price discovery.
Chris Gilbert:So, you know, we're quite quick at the front end, we can design a building, That's all fine. Well, good. But actually figuring out who's gonna build it and how much it costs is what really takes the grunt work. So we were just critiquing that. We're like, okay.
Chris Gilbert:If that is the case, what can we do to address that issue? And one factor was, okay, we've got this off-site manufacturing company, and that can provide a certain amount of cost certainty for a certain amount of the building. So let's say 30%. And then we're like, okay. There's probably another, 60 to 70% of the building there that we need to figure out how to price.
Chris Gilbert:And then we looked at, out of that remainder, what what could we price in house? And I looked at, like, about another 30 or 40% that we could actually reasonably price, which is just a supply of fittings, fixtures, etcetera, etcetera. So, like, okay. That's interesting. That gives us, like, you know, 60 to 70 a bit at center of the building priced in house.
Chris Gilbert:How would we go about doing that? We'll probably need like a little piece of custom software that links into our BIM platform to do that. So we set about going and building that. And then as on that journey of building that little piece of software, like, well, if it's a lot faster for us to design, and price with this little plug in, we should offer the market at cheaper rate for our architectural services because we can move through it more quickly like that's just rational and that kind of goes along with what we've always wanted to do we've always wanted to provide architecture to more people But architecture takes a lot of time, so you've got to charge a lot of money for it. And that's just a result of the tools that we have at hand.
Chris Gilbert:So, like, yeah, it's slow and which is great. Like, well, it's it's it's part of it. Right? But we're we're kind of dealing with the cards we've been dealt. So we're like, well, let's mix that up a bit.
Chris Gilbert:Let's try to create some digital tools that enable us to move faster. And those digital tools are just about costing, really. So once we establish that, we're like, okay. Now how do we take this to the market? And it's hard to sell to the market like this idea of like, oh, it's an expediated architecture service that has no kind of cultural home.
Chris Gilbert:So we just branded it as prefab, because parts of it are prefab and penalized, but it's not a fully prefab serve, like solution. But, culturally, like that, that's a normative, piece of language that people understand, and they attach an idea to it. They attach an idea to it that it is cheaper and faster, which is what our agenda was. So we we we launched this thing called Archer prefab. There's a way to communicate to the architect that we're to the to the community that, we're doing something different and accessible.
Chris Gilbert:And, you know, Freefab has historically been people feel like it's more accessible than where a bespoke architectural practice. Like, they're 2 very different worlds and very different clientele.
Dave Sharp:This episode of Office Talk is supported by Mast Furniture. Mast is an established furniture designer manufacturing company based in Brisbane. In operation since 2012 and climate neutral certified since 2021, MAST has built a national and international reputation for producing original furniture of the highest quality. For Mast, the phrase good design made right embodies who they are, what they do, and what they'd like to achieve. MASK values enduring design, taking their time to develop well designed products both in house and in collaboration with established and upcoming designers.
Dave Sharp:With all of their furniture being produced from their Brisbane workshop and made to order, the majority of their range is able to be customized in material, size, and finishes to suit specific projects and spaces in both residential and commercial environments. So to learn more about Mast, visit their website mastfurniture.com.au or check out their Instagram at mastfurniture. Do you think with the narrative of shift around builders and cost and risk and everything like that, like, prefabs really kind of come into its own as a Yeah. Concept that people are really kinda getting into now.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And that's not to say that it actually delivers on that yet either at all. Like, it's still when
Dave Sharp:it isn't actual prefab.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Exactly. It's still like well, it's it's penalized. But, again, like, we as soon as you say penalized into the kind of general community, like, they don't know what that means. And they nor should they.
Dave Sharp:Panelized doesn't sell.
Chris Gilbert:It doesn't sell. Yeah. So prefab does have efficiencies, but, yeah, it's more about how to sell, in a in a moment, a cultural moment of kind of concern about, yep, builders and costs and cost of design, etcetera, etcetera. So that was our strategy there. That's been super interesting.
Chris Gilbert:You know, there's lots there's government grants around to do r and d at the moment. So that's definitely something that we've lent into. And it just feels better to be working on tools to make you more efficient. It seems like what we should have been doing a long time ago, but we just didn't know, you know, and we kind of came out of uni and we were like, oh, yeah, like, this is the normative thing to do. There's this architectural process that the IIA have, and they've got these contracts, and you just go through and follow them.
Chris Gilbert:And it just seems like we've all been doing that for the last 20 or 30 years. And as soon as you step back and you're like, oh, actually, that's a bit fast like that. Like, there's no innovation in that, area really. So, that's been pretty rewarding. Yeah.
Chris Gilbert:Most exciting thing for sure. More excited about that than, design, really.
Dave Sharp:You faced a kind of a business choice sort of moment where it was like, we've discovered this, like, secret to efficiency that we can shave all these hours and all this labor cost out of the process, and then that could go straight to our bottom line as just like a traditional architecture service. But let's actually not just make it like a secret weapon we've got. Let's create a sub brand called Archer prefab, market it to a different segment of the market, frame it differently, communicate it as being a different alternative. Did you guys, like, think through that choice? Like, in terms of I'm kind of into, like, the profit option.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Yeah. But no. But then there's the scale. There's the scalability options.
Chris Gilbert:I went to study to make a change more broadly, and that change requires you to work at scale for the most amount of people where you can. There's that, and there's also, like, that there just wasn't or isn't still much many, like, really high value homes around anymore. And the competition is really fierce because you know? So it's like, it's both. It's like, this feels like the more moral way to approach architecture, and it also feels like there's probably a broader market.
Chris Gilbert:You know, if you look at the triangle, there's definitely more people, you know, that have $600,000 to spend than there is, like, one point $2,000,000 to spend. So there's a bigger market there, and that they're no less deserving of architecture. So you know? And if you can figure out a way to deliver effectively and efficiently for those people, well, isn't that just a better like, isn't that better across the board?
Dave Sharp:What was it about Archer that made you kind of, I'm not gonna say stumble across this insight into that particularly inefficient part of the process around pricing? Because I think that's such an interesting area to find that efficiency. It was like, let's look at this really mundane shit part of the process Yeah. That is not attributing design excellence and making things beautiful and genius. It's just bureaucracy to get the project delivered.
Chris Gilbert:Grant work. Grant work. Pure grant work.
Dave Sharp:Pure grant work. So let's, like, figure out how to make that part more efficient. It's so it's so smart because you're not expediting the really important front end stuff. And why do you guys think you kind of were the ones to discover it? I know it sounds like a weird No.
Dave Sharp:No. No.
Chris Gilbert:No. No.
Dave Sharp:No. Question because there's so many architects that have the that see the problem, but it's like finding that solution.
Chris Gilbert:I mean, like, I think we all just wanna carve a better life for ourselves that isn't so much in the trenches, like fighting like these small battles that don't actually mean anything. You know, that they just hold up the work. And then it's like, more broadly, like, how do you how do you liberate more people to do better work? And it's like, well, again, there just hasn't been that much innovation in, the delivery process over the last 30 years. So you're like, well, it's like not the sexy part, but it's like the if it's the part that if you can solve, you actually liberate people's time to spend more time in the front end or more time on the smaller details.
Chris Gilbert:And that's like like yeah. It was that was that desire. Like, we don't wanna be working in this kind of middle section of the a procurement process, so let's design our way out of it. Let's build a a better life and, like, you know, that's that whole, like, self like, just constantly examining your life and what you wanna do and getting rid of the parts that you don't wanna do. And then, obviously, like, I feel, like, pretty privileged to have a pretty, like, diverse group of friends, like like, the work in software and obviously having a manufacturing arm.
Chris Gilbert:There's a whole there's a whole different knowledge pools and even cultures between those different industries. Like, they're very different ways of seeing the world. And I think having that, like, not being stuck within the kind of architectural community per se, and seeing how other people say the word means that you're like, oh, okay. I can see, like, another way of doing the thing that I'm doing, rather than being in the echo chamber, which not to say the echo chamber's bad. It's just like, that's probably why we found it.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. And Josh, you know, Josh, the, technical director is a very smart guy, and, like, the conversations I have with him are probably the most, you know, the valuable. So finding a partner that you can kind of bounce ideas off is, like, super valuable.
Dave Sharp:So you make the decision to to do the sub brand because it's kind of tailored to a different part of the market. In what you've seen so far and experienced, who do you feel the prefab crowd like, who do you feel like it's really starting to penetrate into? Like, which segment of the market that's, like, maybe in terms of points of difference against your more traditional kind of client base? And then obviously, I'm interested in, like, how do you kind of now juggle having these 2 different kind of groups a little bit, but how does it sort of work? What sort of audience is this really sort of attracting?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. That's a good question. I guess now at the moment, it's clearly the majority of our work, and the majority of leads are coming from it. You know, like, it's been a long time since someone's contacted us about a bespoke building, really. So, and these are, like, people, like, even up to, like, $2,000,000, really.
Chris Gilbert:So Yeah.
Dave Sharp:That's the thing, isn't it? Yeah. I've worked on a fair few projects like prefab and things like that where you go in expecting it to be this price range of, you know, 500 k, 600 k. And then all of a sudden, you're getting all these 1, 2, $3,000,000 budgets coming out of the woodwork with this enthusiasm in a way that they would have never come forward for the more traditional architecture service. And you're just going, hang on.
Dave Sharp:You're like the prime customer. In terms of budget, you are the prime customer, but what is it?
Chris Gilbert:I think it's, it's intimidating. The the bespoke process is intimidating. It's you know, the whole scene, like, the whole architectural scene is intimidating to a lot of people. And the idea of, like, a more streamlined process that's faster, that's maybe less concerned with, every single nuance is really appealing to probably the large majority of people. I mean, that's why, you know, we've been we've been, we spoke down at the Metricon Design Conference in Hobart, and, you know, they like, people care about design.
Chris Gilbert:They care about their homes, but lots of people are kind of buying, those houses because it's easy. It's simple. It's taken care of, and they can trust the kind of builder that's sitting behind it. So it's like, yeah. That's what that's what we've gotta get to.
Chris Gilbert:That's the point we've gotta get to. We've gotta be simple, approachable, trustworthy, then we can deliver further the most amount of people.
Dave Sharp:It's not like we've got a range of free designs and sort of pick 1. It's not that it's still custom design. They're not walking in going, I'll pick option a, like, and upgrade the, you know, the curtains.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. It's site specific, bespoke planning, and then we just have some consistent, building methodologies. You know? CLT floor plate, stud walls, exposed draft to roof, structural glazed facade system, lots of glass.
Dave Sharp:Do you think it's easier to make it a mostly custom thing with those, like, repeatable elements than it is to do that predetermined design thing and then try to adapt it to sites and conditions and
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. I I I think so. And that's why we arrived there because we're like, you know, we still, you know, I still go to site and have a little, like, meditate on sites because there's you know, all of these sites have a vibe, and you wanna, get the best out of each site. So it needs to be site specific. And then if you can increase if you can make the tools so the cost of designing a bespoke building is the same of just modifying an existing plan, then, like, that's like, you know, that's the sweet spot and that's what we should, you know, be aiming for.
Chris Gilbert:And that's I like, ideally, if these tool tools are successful, we'll start giving them out to other architects because, again, like, we can't make a big enough change just by ourselves. Like, everybody needs to be able to work more efficiently. And I and, again, I don't blame the profession for not building these tools earlier either. I think it's actually industry, that's really held us back. So yeah.
Dave Sharp:And this is there another area of the design process you've identified where you think there's a lot of waste at that stage that's not really contributing much? Like, other than that price resolution side, is there anything else?
Chris Gilbert:I mean, definitely. So the software also reaches out to a preferred contractor early on and, ask them to kind of put in some high level numbers around what they think, and just getting those kind of, yeah, large items. Like, if it's a tough site, you know, they'll put in additional money for preliminaries and things like that or if it's steep, you know, they'll start throwing in those numbers super early on. So, I mean, that's still around price, but it's also getting a contractor aware of a project. And then it also asks so it sends them a web form and also asks when they're available.
Chris Gilbert:So then you can kinda see what kind of windows they've got, match it up with when you think you can get there. So that's definitely helpful. But also, like, the the digital plug in tools that off-site manufacturer, Canda, has built. Like, they are just so fucking fast to actually model structure. So communicating with sub consultants with much better models is definitely help helping as well.
Chris Gilbert:So, yeah, just like, you know, I you know, you should be able to kind of bang out a house in a in a day, maybe 2. But, you know, yeah, by combining everything together.
Dave Sharp:So the software, you're actually sort of well, it sounds like it's expanding its scope and functionality to sort of tackle slightly adjacent problems, and it's starting to kind of, like, advance into more parts of the process maybe.
Chris Gilbert:That's right. That's right. And then after that, like, you'll be able to download the schedules from it as well, and you'll be able to email the suppliers of all of the different items that you've scheduled. Just like stuff like that. You know, grunt work that, like, we just constantly are redoing in a kind of traditional format, or you have all of this data kinda locked in your BIM model, and it's got no way of reaching out into the real world.
Chris Gilbert:So, like, solving that transaction cost, I think, like, there's huge amount of value there to unlock if we can do that. You know, it's a much that's a much bigger project, but there's definitely scope. There's so much scope. That's yeah. And I'm most excited about how that, like, in like, just improve the process because architecture could could be a really beautiful craft if we could strip out a lot of the kind of meaningless, transactions that we have to do.
Chris Gilbert:So it is beautiful, but, you know, it could be more beautiful.
Dave Sharp:Do you think that architecture because obviously, if you go to get a home designed by a builder and a drafty or whatever, it's extremely efficient, but it's not very good. Sometimes I wonder if, like, the architecture, the slowness and the efficiency and the wastefulness is, like, kind of it's actually there on purpose.
Chris Gilbert:Oh, god. Don't tell
Dave Sharp:me that.
Chris Gilbert:I don't know.
Dave Sharp:I'm thinking about craft, like, use that word craft a second ago. And, like, there's nothing craft about sending a 1,000 back and forth emails and putting together spreadsheets. Like, that doesn't feel like craft, but I do wonder about this spectrum between making it so efficient it ends up kind of becoming kind of not architecture in some way. I don't know if that happens. I'm just sort of I'm just saying at some point, does it leave the category in your mind where you're like, where do we draw that line of, like, are we doing an architecture service and business here?
Chris Gilbert:Like I mean, that's a good question. And this is like there's the poetics of architecture and architecture as art, which I get that. That's fine. That's great. And if that's what you wanna do
Dave Sharp:Well, you guys are good at that. So that's why I'm like, I know it's important still. You know?
Chris Gilbert:I mean, I think you can have poet poetry and do it more quickly or have more time to reflect on the site because you don't have to do all of this groundwork. You know? Like, taking really, this is about stripping all the shit that's not poetic out of the process. But even that, like, like, I understand what you're saying, but I also feel like we've got this big fucking problem. Right?
Chris Gilbert:Like, lots of people are living in pretty shitty houses. And for us as a profession profession to sit back and be like, oh, I still wanna fucking build a model for every design, and I still wanna take 3 months. Like, that to me is a moral. Like, that's not making the best use of the utility that you, represent. You know?
Chris Gilbert:Like like, there's so many really smart people that I feel, wasting some time. You know, and there's I I personally feel more like there's an urgency to do something. There's an urgency from an environmental perspective, and there's an urgency from a design perspective just to move faster at scale and provide better homes to more people. Like, I can't, I just feel our children are just gonna judge us really poorly. That's my personal opinion.
Chris Gilbert:And again, and maybe, like, you can have a architectural practice that's an arts practice, and that's great. I'm not saying don't do that, but, me personally, I I find it repugnant.
Dave Sharp:What makes it interesting for me is that it's coming from a practice that is, you know, doing award winning quality, excellent work, you know, and, like, that's what you're known for, and then it's coming from there. It's not coming from a place of, like, you know, an architecture business or a design business that struggled to ever do anything at that kind of a plus level, like that top tier of work to then develop some like, a tool that kind of generates buildings more quickly, I go like, you know, fair enough because they're just gonna expedite things to the nth degree. Like, it'll be like a budget airline type of level of kinda quality where it's like every single bit we can shave out. But I feel like for you guys, why it's so interesting is because it's coming from that top level where you're going. We're doing, like, the really, really high end ultra bespoke incredible projects, like super innovative, super creative and everything, but we're just going after those, like, shitty wasteful bits.
Dave Sharp:And what you're saying about then spending more time on the poetic parts is really, like, the key, I think. It's not about saying those aren't valuable, which I think sometimes that's when it comes up from the bottom end, that's where they go for the waste because they're like, well, why are we spending so much time thinking about responding to a site? That's a waste of time. Just Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:Copy paste what we did the last you know what I mean?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Whereas you're going, no. That's the important part. So I think that's it's like this attitude about what's valuable in the process is really important to distinguish. You know?
Chris Gilbert:Definitely. And then where our clients see value as well. Like, clients don't see value in you producing a nice spreadsheet. They see value in you having a really sophisticated response to site. So let's just do let's get the computers to do everything that isn't valuable, but is required, and us do the nice poetic stuff.
Chris Gilbert:And that's the same way I kinda feel about AI.
Dave Sharp:Do you see your tools that you've developed leaving residential?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. So we're we're kind of in the early stages of talking to a, like, a larger manufacturer about doing commercial stuff as well.
Chris Gilbert:Because the same thing. Right? Like, innovative building solutions aren't getting adopted because the cost of learning about them, getting complete information about them is really high, so they just don't get implemented and our buildings commercial buildings just end up still just being concrete and curtain walls. So it's just like, well, if if you can lower the transaction cost to, start building in more modern ways or a lower carbon ways, if you could make that transition to that new world, really easy, more people would do it. So that's that's what I'm working on part time.
Chris Gilbert:I'm actually consulting for another company part time trying to get to that point.
Dave Sharp:Going back to question, I picked up on it a while ago, which is about, like, the different segments that the prefab stuff is kind of reaching that maybe wasn't otherwise being reached by architects. You mentioned the kind of intimidation that the bespoke service presents. Like, why do you think that it's seen as intimidating?
Chris Gilbert:Probably because, you know, the magazines are glossy, and they show people that obviously have, like, a lot of money living, like, pretty idolized lifestyles. And just like, you know, people love to hang shit on architects. Like, it's a kind of
Dave Sharp:it's
Chris Gilbert:a kind of, trope, isn't it? Like, that there's this perception of what we are that was probably built sometime in the twenties or thirties, and it seems to have a really, really long tail.
Dave Sharp:So do you think the appeal of the prefab is like an architect has been less involved in this? Yeah. Possibly. And they're like,
Chris Gilbert:oh my god. Which is unfortunate, but, that's the world we're in.
Dave Sharp:I mean, it's interesting to think about kind of the perception and what's the sort of level of trust and interest in sort of architecture as a brand currently?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. It is. Yeah. Super interesting. Yeah.
Chris Gilbert:And then, you know, how to change that I I believe how to change that is actually by, like, some sort of way of like, the architect knowing what the cost is at every point of the process so they can deliver what they've set out to do on budget. Like, that would go a huge way to reassuring people that we know what we're doing and to have confidence in us.
Dave Sharp:You usually have to kind of get a quantity surveyor involved and, like, professionally too to do that, but then you're talking about just kind of getting these kind of high level process from contractors directly.
Chris Gilbert:Yep. Yep. Yep. And then pricing whatever you can, live. So yeah.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. I think that that's a definitely way to change the, norm and then be cheaper, you know, be more accessible if you were doing work, you know, out in suburbs that aren't traditionally known for having architects, and producing better quality buildings out there, maybe that, you know, maybe then the kind of normative language around it would change.
Dave Sharp:If you're working on a a smaller budget in a in a place where there isn't typically architects working on sort of one of your sort of average or median sort of projects with prefab, like, as a percentage, would you say your fees are, like, a greater percentage than they are on your kind of normal bespoke projects, but the absolute amount is smaller because it's just it's a smaller budget, or does it work out sort of, like, kinda comparable in a way?
Chris Gilbert:No. I mean, we're we can't really deliver these things much cheaper at the moment, so it's not, it's not that much cheaper. But you get better value I would say just because like we're manufacturing, the components that are high value. Like, we're doing these, like, curtain walls of glass that are structurally glazed, thermally broken up to passive house standard, which is less like, you know, a really high end architectural, product, and you're getting it at a decent rate. So I still liked it definitely in the kind of middle to upper tier of budgets.
Chris Gilbert:But phase wise, we're, like, at 5% heaps lower. And that's just because, you know, there's just less work there to do for us.
Dave Sharp:Crazy. That's a big discount on Yeah.
Chris Gilbert:It is.
Dave Sharp:Smaller budgets. So
Chris Gilbert:you know, we've just gotta move faster and that's okay. But again, like, if if we can do it, it just feels like the right thing to do. Like, you'll what money are you losing? Like, a lot of that money is just labor. Right?
Chris Gilbert:So it's not actually a loss. If you were to make $10,000 for every job, but it only cost you a $1,000 worth of labor, well, that's good. You know? It's like still that marginal difference rather than just like, this language of higher and higher higher fees to cover, more and more time, which I get. But it's just like you could get, like, your price out heaps of people out of the process by doing that.
Chris Gilbert:So we've gotta stop doing that. We've gotta hit the other direction, especially if, like, there's not as much work around, and construction's more expensive. Yeah. I worry about that as a it's constantly what I hear. Like, you've just gotta charge more.
Chris Gilbert:It's just like people aren't talking about you've gotta improve your process.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. You've
Chris Gilbert:gotta spend less time. Yeah. You know? It's like, it's going the other way. And, really, like, it's the lazy way.
Chris Gilbert:Oh, just charge more. It's just like, well, you haven't actually critiqued your process to see what you could strip strip out. And then, like, and then you wonder why we're working for the elite. It's just like, well, well, we fucking did it to ourselves, guys.
Dave Sharp:Can't remember which business book I was reading recently, but they were talking about that exact thing about, like, the make more sales, get more revenue is kind of like the go to solution, but there's very rarely an evaluation of efficiency and cost. And, like, how do you put yourself the challenge of how do I do the exact same outcome with half the inputs or half the expense? And, like, you set yourself this crazy, almost challenge that creates a lot of creativity to find these really innovative solutions, which is kind of, like, in a way, I think, what you've done. Like
Chris Gilbert:That's exactly what we did. We were just like, how how do we do this in 3 weeks? How do we deliver a full project in 3 weeks? Like, let's map that out.
Dave Sharp:I love that
Chris Gilbert:shit. Like, you gotta, like and then, like, it forces you to critique the process and, like, you know, it's feel it just it just feels better than being like, oh, like, you know, I'd like I recently turned 40 and freaked out as you would. And I was just like, I just can't keep doing the same shit that I've been doing for the last 10 years for the next 10 years. You know? That's just just not a life well lived.
Chris Gilbert:I was like, well, yeah, like, let's let's strip out everything that's not maximizing value. Yep. And design a new way around that. And, again, like, architecture is filled with, like, people that are just so smart, so fucking smart. And I feel like if we were to take some of that energy and rather than putting it on contracts and how to, like, write better contracts, like, put it on how to create better, more streamlined processes and connections to industry, you know, it would bear so much fruit.
Dave Sharp:Talking about this idea of, like, narrative and, you know, you're talking about this cultural sort of wave of people believing you're you're crazy if you're gonna build right now. Right? Like, if they were to take a poll of the Australian population and ask them, what would your thought do you think now is a good time to build a house? Like, I reckon it would fall, like, 95% no. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Like like, 5 is a yes. Right? Like, that is like, that has just become this, like, widespread belief. It's really interesting how you deal with that when you're in the business.
Dave Sharp:It's like, what do you do? You see occasionally some people trying to challenge that narrative, some sort of, like, pretty desperate Instagram posts about, actually, here's why you're wrong, and it's a great time to build. You know? That that kind of thing. But I think, like, you mentioned earlier that you're just kind of, like like, shift around that narrative.
Dave Sharp:Like, just circumvent it. You know?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah. And I and appreciate it's that it's there and it's real and give yourself a break that, yeah, there's just isn't there is a sentiment around at the moment and it's not you. Like, it's the Australian culture, the Australian public feel this way, and that's okay. It's okay that, things aren't okay, I guess.
Chris Gilbert:Like, and we're going to have to kind of just, wait it out until that turns around. And then what do we do in the meantime is an interesting question. So like, like, I've stepped back. I'm not working 5 days at the moment at Archer, kind of working more on these, like other other projects, trying to give this time to more junior staff to kind of step up and learn and create. But yeah.
Chris Gilbert:But accepting that it's not all, like, all rosy at the moment.
Dave Sharp:Getting into a situation where you go, what are some other ways, like, around this? You know? And so for some practices, I guess, they're thinking, like, maybe we need to go start doing, like, schoolwork or social housing or, you know, developers or whatever. Like, they try and find like, try and circumvent around it that way. But but for you guys, it's actually been this sort of different process of going, maybe we launch kind of completely different businesses that that are complementary to our kind of our main business and our brand.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah. And and why don't we go and consult with industry and do other things, you know, because we're we we do have yeah. Like, we're, you know, are just 10 years old now. So we do have this kind of pool of knowledge that has value outside of strictly architecture as well.
Chris Gilbert:And, like, I think connecting with industry is, like, really a really valuable thing to do. You learn a lot about the other side of, you know, the pond, like, what they're trying to do. And I think there's a lot of value to add there as well. Like, because a lot of these large companies are assuming that architects work and think in a certain way, which is often wrong. It's like you're coming from, the architectural profession and helping them, communicate or helping them develop new products is actually super valuable.
Chris Gilbert:And, you know, like, you represent a great amount of, yep, value in that in that situation. And then personally, like, I've found it, like, a really valuable way to grow and learn about new techniques and new cultures and, you know, new little subcategories of, you know, I've been hanging out with engineers for the last week and like, that's just so rewarding. Like, it's so it's yeah, it's really refreshing. It's different mindset.
Dave Sharp:In launching some of these businesses, like your off-site manufacturing, business, like candor as well, we're talking like it's a very different type of business to an architecture practice, because, like, what do you need to start an architecture practice? You you bloody do a Squarespace website, you hire a graduate, you, you know, you maybe rent a coworking space and you're off to the races. Right? Like, that's Yeah. Like and you and you pay for your, you know, your Adobe license, and then and then you're and then you're good.
Dave Sharp:You're good to go. The cost of starting are like virtually nothing. But then when we're talking about, like, you know, buying some giant piece of machinery from Copenhagen that's gonna, like, you know, cut out window frames, like, we're talking proper money. We're talking, like, setting up a real thing here. Like, it's a completely different kettle of fish.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. It's a whole different ballgame and a whole different skill set. So, from the very beginning, we were like, you know, we are not, the ones to run this business. So we got the CEO on board, and he has, like, you know, a stake in the company. One of the guys who is much more technically focused, from Archer, John, he went out and actually is, like, setting up the factory and running the factory and running the robot saw.
Chris Gilbert:And he's always had an interest in carpentry and things like that, so there was a natural kind of, like, skill set there. But then just capital, yeah, just like I think we're probably, like, 2, 2 and a half $1,000,000 in out there. So it's a whole
Dave Sharp:It's like half an archer house right there.
Chris Gilbert:That's right. No. It's a it's a lot it's a lot of money. And, you know, we we didn't originally, when we were thinking about this whole process, it wasn't we were we weren't thinking let's go set up a facility. We were trying to figure out how to connect our digital models to people that already had these machines.
Chris Gilbert:And then, like, working through that process, we constantly were getting battered back by industry because they're like, you know, we've got this, like, $10,000,000 facility here. We don't have time to kind of deal with, like, this little architect coming in and saying, oh, we wanna load files directly onto your machinery. Like, they just went into it. So we were kind of reluctantly pushed into it to it. But then it is one of the best things we've done just because it does present you with all of this addiff additional capacity and skill sets.
Chris Gilbert:And, you know, we just, the guys out at Canada just installed a pavilion for the building 4 point o CRC, which is a collective research council. And the details that they came up with for that building and the level of craft that the machine was able to pull off in such a short amount of time was just so amazing. And you just couldn't you just can't have that kind of agency if you just have an architectural company. You need these kind of other people and other skill sets and other bits of equipment to be able to procure that kind of work in that time span. So, yeah, it's been a huge financial commitment across the board and we've had external investors.
Chris Gilbert:You know, it's a big commitment, but we really feel like that connection between those two worlds, design and manufacturing, like, just there's just so much value there to unlock and so much agency to unlock. It's really powerful. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:It reminds me a little bit of, like, Elon Musk. I hate to make the comparison, but it's like, the guy's like at Tesla one day a week, then he's at the space factory the next day, then he's doing the brain implants on a Thursday, then he's like and he's like digging tunnels under Vegas on a Friday, and and he's running Twitter on Saturday. And it's just like, man, this guy, he's got so many businesses that he's, like, bumping around on. I imagine you're probably feeling somewhat in a similar kind of basket except minus the private jet and, like, 50 minutes or whatever.
Chris Gilbert:Minus all the money. Yeah. No. I mean, like the money as
Dave Sharp:well. No.
Chris Gilbert:No. I mean, can they kind of, John and, Jess, they and Josh, actually, they all look after that, so I don't really have much to do with it. I'm like, I help out a day a week and just kinda work on, that digital tool side of things now and kind of do a lot of, like, kind of meetings with potential clients and, investors and stuff like that. But the consultancy stuff's been actually super interesting. Like, I do feel like having a gap in your career where you go and step outside of architecture, like, I think there's a lot of value there.
Chris Gilbert:And and you also, like, potentially general generate a whole new way or a whole new toolkit of procuring buildings. So I'm I'm kind of, working with a large timber manufacturer, and it's like, oh, I can see now I can see how they go about fabricating buildings. It's like, oh, what what potential is there for our future commercial buildings to use that system and really push that system? So it's it's like a kind of, yeah, paid kind of education, really. Super valuable.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. And also, like, there's you meet different people, so you're, you know, there's a different client base there potentially as well. Like, it's, super valuable. And as part of that role, actually, I've been talking with a lot a lot a lot of larger practices and just that's been really rewarding as well. Like, whole different scale, whole different way of kind of running projects and just, keeping a foot in that door is, like, yeah, super valuable.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Intellectually pretty stimulated at the moment.
Dave Sharp:Has it kind of given you maybe a different perspective on the kind of the challenges you face in the old school part of the business, like the traditional part of the business? Like, do do you find yourself in situations where you're dealing with a situation with a client or some problem that's, like, always been there, and you kind of find yourself going like, wait. I I have a totally different perspective on how to deal with this right now than I used to. Like, I don't know. Is there anything like that that comes to mind?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Like, or maybe just a, like, a deeper frustration with, like, oh, we're doing this again. Like, why have we and we solved this? And then there's, like, this deep frustration with the last generation of architects as well. Like, why didn't they solve for this?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. What sort of sort of clown car were they running that we still have to go through this? And then, like, and then you're like, okay. Well, I've got a responsibility here to make sure that you don't pass the same kind of issues onto the next generation of people that are in practice. So you're kind of like, yeah.
Chris Gilbert:There there's definitely definitely lots of moments like that. It's like, oh, okay. Once once you kinda get into this world of, like, wanting to constantly improve the process, like, you see it everywhere. And you're like, okay. How
Dave Sharp:What are a couple of examples? Just any is there anything that comes to mind?
Chris Gilbert:Like window details is a classic one. Right? How many times have architects drawn a window detail, and it's just like and constantly, even still with the process that we've got, we're constantly still redrawing the same window detail, and it's just like that. I wanna solve that. I wanna come up with a process that it's not the same detail every time, but there's a few real crackers.
Chris Gilbert:And then we roll that out and we refine it rather than, like, everybody coming in and doing the same thing over and over again. That's definitely one. Like, I think, like, every time I see a different way of building, I'm just like I'd especially, like, rammed hemp, I'm kind of interested in the moment, like, especially the precast stuff. So, yeah, I think one company in Melbourne is doing, like, rammed precast hemp, which is sounds super attractive. Right?
Chris Gilbert:It's like, oh, okay. I only get involved in that, but the cost of a of our company going and learning about that, actually getting it through the building survey, etcetera, etcetera, like, that's a massive cost. So I was like, how do we how could we do that, or how could we digitize all that information to make that super accessible to heaps of architects so we only have to do it once? And all of a sudden, like, that, fledgling industry has this access to a massive scale of people that can use it instantly. Like, all of a sudden, you kinda step up the rate of innovation if you can do things like that.
Chris Gilbert:Because as soon as someone has a good idea, they have a market for it. And that's like, you know, half the battle really finding.
Dave Sharp:I feel like you guys will develop some sort of marketplace that people can sell their own, design elements or something on your, you know, your like virtual universe of, like, you know, Canva, Minecraft
Chris Gilbert:stuff. That's right. Because wouldn't that be better for everybody? Like, if it's 0 cost to procure a new building systems, like like, that to me is just so exciting.
Dave Sharp:Just a thought that's popping in mind because it's an issue that I'll face in my own sort of work is that constantly building this, like, database of what are things that we've recommended in marketing strategies. So we're, like, building up this pool of things that we can, like, look at and kind of pick from and things like that. But as it grows and grows and grows and as things change, I I find that sometimes it can start to become, like, more effort to evolve and change and update that huge library that you've developed. And, like, it feels really easy at first because you're like, oh, great. We're getting so much efficiency out of this.
Dave Sharp:But over time, you start to go, oh, this is some of this is starting to, like, maybe show its age a little bit in some ways, and now it's like you're kinda looking at it and you're kinda going, oh, do I use any of this stuff? Do we need to go and update it? I don't know. Do you find that when you're building a system, you use the word innovative, and I'm sort of wondering about the more you have systems, sometimes they can kind of, I don't know, calcify things a little bit. Like, there comes a point where you start to go, do we want that detail anymore?
Dave Sharp:Or whatever. Like, how do you deal with that? How do you sort of make sure that they're continuing to kind of evolve? Is that because I guess Evolve.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. That
Dave Sharp:is custom. Is that or
Chris Gilbert:move with trends, you could say.
Dave Sharp:Move with trends. I mean, without without saying it. That's I I just mean, like, stay relevant, you know, like, in
Chris Gilbert:that sense. I mean, like, I fully appreciate what you're saying, and it's definitely, at risk. And and this is where it's like, where where can you provide the most utility, really? But I would say, like, the mid century modernist, like, those are still really good buildings, really good designs. And if you were to build one of those again now, you wouldn't change heaps about it.
Chris Gilbert:So I think there is something towards timeless design that you could be like, yeah, okay. There's a way to design in a somewhat timeless manner. You know? And other way is like, you know, what we're kinda saying is we're still just building with stud frames, CLT. Like, all of those solutions can be any geometry you want.
Chris Gilbert:And then it's just like, how do you align it? And that's why I said, you know, moving with, like, the kind of trends. You can still skin buildings in different materials and different linings, and that's essentially what everybody does. Right? Probably, I don't know what percentage of architectural work would be stud framed with plasterboard.
Chris Gilbert:I'd imagine it would be an extremely high amount. Like and and I mean, what you're also saying is, like, the plasterboard is that product to me. Like, I really hate plasterboard. Like, I think it's horrible because everybody from the $2 shop to Crown Casino use it. And but but everybody still continues to use it because everybody likes a white box.
Chris Gilbert:So it's like, there's definitely a risk there. I completely appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think you should let, you know, great be the enemy of good. And especially when good at scale. Like, in this way, like, I kinda have a utilitarian approach to life. Right?
Chris Gilbert:Like, it's about how how we can do the most with what we have rather than, just like being always seeking the best. Like, yeah, it doesn't feel it feels immoral.
Dave Sharp:On that, I'm gonna ask a question I know you're gonna hate.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah.
Dave Sharp:So let me just set it up.
Chris Gilbert:Give me.
Dave Sharp:And you'll be like, I don't care. So, like, all that stuff. Okay. Cynical me. Like, if we look at luxury consumerism, like handbags, cars, watches
Chris Gilbert:Love it.
Dave Sharp:Exclusivity and status are hugely important fundamentals of those products and those brands being successful. The idea is that everybody should want it, everybody should know about it, but only the elite can actually get their hands on it. If an alien was to look at residential architecture from down from space and say what are these buildings and like as objects as consumerist objects it would be like ultra high status flexing of, you know, income and wealth. What is interesting to me is what happens from a brand management perspective when you offer that accessible entry point with maybe it's a subconscious thing, but I sort of wonder, does the more status driven client just do they potentially just go somewhere else now? Because their psychological need for, like, being high status and impressive is no longer being met by that brand to the same degree that it might have been before.
Dave Sharp:I just sort of always wonder about this when I think about premium positioned luxury ish kind of residential brands. What happens when you start offering the kind of economy class version of the service? Does that alienate your existing client base in a way?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're right, and it would for sure. I mean, I don't think they've ever been our clients, though.
Chris Gilbert:I just don't think I can fully appreciate what you're saying. I I don't think those people have ever really been our clients, though. I could say that, like, for other firms, that would be an issue. And, again, I'm not saying that other practices shouldn't do, like, ultra high end, ultra exclusive, ultra ultra kinda arts based, really kind of slow work. I think that's great.
Chris Gilbert:It's great for them. I want diversity, but I think we've seen a hole that we don't feel enough people are feeling. All the way people think that they are addressing it isn't as scalable as it possibly could be. You know? Like, I fundamentally believe that the only way we can deliver better quality envelopes at scale is by not educating all the architects that are kind of out in the profession about how to deal with thermal bridges, how to deal with, you know, what type of insulation you need in certain climate zones, what kind of heat extractor you need.
Chris Gilbert:Like, we need to distribute that information in a digital format because that is super low cost, and it requires no actual learning for architects to take on board that new information. That's just a process. Like, if through through the process of them using ARCHICAD or Revit, those elements are built in. You you don't actually need to communicate or to teach anybody. So students can keep coming out of university and not really having to know have a technical background.
Chris Gilbert:And just by the process of working, the tools are doing the kind of technical side
Dave Sharp:They don't have to, like, conceive of it from scratch and fully understand it. They're they're able to sort of just go, that does what it does.
Chris Gilbert:That does what it does.
Dave Sharp:I don't I don't need to know how every little Exactly. Layer of that thing does what it does.
Chris Gilbert:Exactly. Because we've already reached that point. Right? You don't know how your computer actually works. Yeah.
Chris Gilbert:Theoretically, you might know. You're told things turn on and
Dave Sharp:off inside.
Chris Gilbert:You're like, oh, yeah. But you don't actually know. So I think we just need to bring all the that all the way to the front of the process, and you shouldn't actually need to know. You should just by doing, everything else should be resolved. And that's like where I think the passive house community have kind of got it wrong where they're just all about education.
Chris Gilbert:They're like, we just need to educate more people, and that's how we're gonna get better building supplies. And I just don't think that's actually scalable.
Dave Sharp:It's interesting because there is, like, a real, like, construction building value system in the industry, where it's like, if you don't know how that layer connects to that layer and that screw goes there and that does this and that does that, then you don't really know jack shit about architecture, my friends. It's basically the That's the current attitude. Sticking. That's the current that's the kind of attitude and mentality. Right?
Dave Sharp:Like
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, yeah, where do you draw that line? Like, people don't know what the different threads on the screws do.
Chris Gilbert:Do you expect architects to know about that? And I and I just think that, like, the architectural profession have got so much other stuff to be concerned about. You know? The why why try to you can't be a jack of all trades, and the industry shouldn't expect you to be a jack of all trades. So let's make it so, like, the tools you use are super specialized and they deliver all of that information.
Chris Gilbert:And you can focus on doing the important things, like having a meaningful relationship with your client, a meaningful relationship with the site, and delivering value to society. Like, that's, like, that's actually the valuable part of, an architect. And then the rest of the stuff we can automate for sure.
Dave Sharp:Tried to ask this question earlier, but I didn't ask it right, which is why you guys like, why Archer? And I kind of the question comes back to mind because I sort of think about, like, a builder didn't come up with this system that you're developing. A company that runs a off-site with a big machine that cuts things out, they didn't come up with a system and come to the architecture world and say, hey, guys. We've got the this digital tools. Come use it.
Dave Sharp:Because that would have kind of probably, like, fallen flat and not worked and been shit. So I guess or maybe it wouldn't have or maybe it just didn't seem to be worth their time to do it. They didn't understand. Like, I don't know. Like, to me, those would be much more likely places for that technology to develop.
Dave Sharp:It would be, like, from the people that are, like, supplying that technology. But for it to come from you guys is kind of just like a really sort of unexpected place for it to originate from, I feel like, to go and develop software and, like, engage in this, like, you know, this manufacturing technology because those aren't your traditional areas. Right? So it's, like, interesting. So it's kinda like you brought the architecture side to it.
Dave Sharp:Like, that was the missing part that the the builder couldn't come up with or the factory couldn't come up with. You know?
Chris Gilbert:Well, yeah. And I I guess so that we we've done a bit like, we've got a really diverse team of skill and a diverse skill set, and we all talk. And then each of them had involved and interested, like, John's really interested in carpentry. So Josh is really interested in software and BIM. I'm kind of interested in architecture.
Chris Gilbert:And it's like through those kind of conversations and arguments that, like, it's arisen as a solution. And also, like, you know, I was I'm much more interested in kind of transaction costs than I am in architectural theory. So, like, I think there's a bias there of,
Dave Sharp:Transaction costs.
Chris Gilbert:Transaction costs, which is, like, the most boring topic to 99.9 credit
Dave Sharp:card fees? What are we talking about? What's a transaction got?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. But anyway Better luck. Like, the 4 of us have all got very different, like, understandings of how the world goes together and, like, when you then have its common goal of, like, willing to make architecture more efficient and everybody wants that within the kind of company, then, like, the solution has emerged out of that. And by chance, we're just like, it's chance and luck. And, you know, I think also we were, like, successful enough when we were young that now we've got time to kind of think about the next thing rather than think about the next award.
Chris Gilbert:We're thinking about, like, the idea of winning another award doesn't really, like, do buzz me at all, actually. Like, it's just like actually, how do we make this better and better for our kids? And, you know, since over the last 10 years, we've had kids and we've you know, the kind of focus has shifted from wanting to be successful within the architectural profession to wanting to be successful within that kind of broader society.
Dave Sharp:On the last episode, we were talking about, I guess, like, describing Archer as being kind of pretty top heavy, really, in terms of, like, a lot of directors, basically, just a team of directors. Yeah. You know? But it's really it's a it's an interesting kind of different approach that there aren't as many small practices that that have that. But it actually turns out that that's kind of sort of been key to unlocking this kind of, like, innovation and entrepreneurship.
Dave Sharp:Like, that probably wouldn't have happened if it was just, like, Chris, sole director with a project architect and 2 graduates doing architecture. Like, that may not have emerged as
Chris Gilbert:That's very true. That's very true. Yeah. Yep. That's very true.
Chris Gilbert:And also, like, yeah, or maybe, like, having very different backgrounds, like, not coming out of the same kind of schools and universities, like, yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good that's a good insight.
Dave Sharp:I didn't ask this at the beginning, but what was the kind of the catalyst do you feel? Why was there a sudden motivation to start putting the time into the kind of the side projects? I'm only calling them the side projects because at the time, they were the side projects. They weren't, like, the core business. And I suppose I mean, we talked about the narrative.
Dave Sharp:We talked about the kind of the timing and the conditions around, like, prefab arriving, but what was the actual catalyst or spark? Like, what was the situation that led to it?
Chris Gilbert:It it was literally just frustration with, procuring SIPs and CLT, like these off-site building systems from overseas, and, like, the process of procuring them, of the shop drawing them, checking the shop drawings, and again, this is that's a transaction cost. Right? That process is a massive transaction cost. That was just so tedious and and, like, we were losing money on projects, and we were like, where are we losing that money? We're losing money from this, like, trying to do these super high performance buildings and then being like, okay.
Chris Gilbert:Identifying it's that connection to industry. That's where we're losing money. So let's try to fix that off our own bat. And then that's the kind of that's where it all starts. And
Dave Sharp:But it was a gradually building frustration then to just, like, reach this white boiling point where you're like, we're like, can't take it anymore.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah. You can't take it. It's just like my my house that I'm in now, like, I showed up and it was 50 mil short. Like the SIPs were 50 mil short of the structural steel.
Chris Gilbert:And I was just like fuck fuckity fuck. Like this is the last time we do SIPs until we can sort this out. Because it's just, like, 1,000 of dollars and, like, so much time, and you're just swapping white color work with blue color work. And then you're looking at this digital model on your computer, and you're like, why can't you just transfer this to a factory? Like, that question, like, why?
Chris Gilbert:So the answer is probably we're lazy turds, and we were sick of, like, constantly doing shit.
Dave Sharp:Because you're all directors, and you're like, we're too we're a senior for this crap. Exactly. Dude Who's gonna do this work? We're lazy.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Yeah. That's probably right.
Dave Sharp:So I guess, like, to kind of, like, round things out, like, when we redo the next podcast in 2027 or whatever, what's the future, man? What are you guys gonna do?
Chris Gilbert:I mean, ideally, we've we've got, these kind of software out to more architects, and people are starting to
Dave Sharp:to any at the moment or just in just you guys
Chris Gilbert:Just in Archer. And, again, like, maybe going back to your question about, like, why arse? Because we can probably develop stuff and then test it within, like, the, an architectural practice. So So that's probably why. Because I do know there's some guys out of Grimshaw in the UK that are doing a similar thing, and they, you know, the same thing.
Chris Gilbert:They kind of, were building tools to make it easier for themselves. So, ideally, you know, in 5 to 10 years, we've actually got a marketplace of building systems available to a lot of practices. Like, that would be my dream for sure. Yep. That feels like the most valuable thing I could do for the industry.
Dave Sharp:Makes sense. You'll make a lot more money too.
Chris Gilbert:Hopefully. I mean, I was just
Dave Sharp:You're putting so much investment of time and creativity into building this, like, toolset that doesn't make sense if you're doing 5 big houses a year. Like, it just makes no sense to build that infrastructure. It just it's just unnecessary. So you're doing the next thing of going, well, let's do a lot more projects. And the total value, the total, like, economic size of all this work we're doing will go up multiple times.
Dave Sharp:And then now you start looking out to, like, industry wide adoption. It's like you're talking like $1,000,000,000 of building happening under the system, you know, or whatever. Like Yeah.
Chris Gilbert:That's right.
Dave Sharp:Has a lot more scale to it. So that makes sense.
Chris Gilbert:Yep. And if you can if that software is actually saving time, like that's value, right? So if you've then you capture X amount of that value as a fee, like 2% or whatever, then that's a net positive for the world.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. You need to get ahead of it and start, like, a BIM scholarship to, like because that's actually what's the market share of BIM amongst architecture practices under 10 people? Like, right now, it's probably, like it's high ish. Right? But it's like I want I'd be curious to know what it is because I feel like that's an essential first step for your, like, adoption, isn't it?
Chris Gilbert:Well, yeah. Again, like, that and that's like you have to critique that statement as well and be like, okay. Why is that? Is it because most of the kind of BIM tools out there are shit and kinda hard to use? So how do you make it so it's easy, beautiful to use?
Chris Gilbert:And the beta we've got that the guys from Follygram have made for us is beautiful, and that's just like yeah. It needs to be
Dave Sharp:built a BIM.
Chris Gilbert:We built we built a a beta for, Archicad already that's up and running. Yeah. And it's great. Like, it's a beautiful thing, and you're like, yeah. This is what I wanna I wanna use this thing.
Chris Gilbert:So that constant, like, checking of, like, why is this shit?
Dave Sharp:It's one of those classic things where it's like, you know, you're talking about we get to sort of test it and use it because we are architects. We know our problems. We're developing software to, like, scratch our own itch or whatever. And, like, that has a sort of authenticity to it that you don't get from, like, you know, random factory with machine building a tool for architects, which is gonna be ugly and not work properly. And, you know, that sort of thing.
Dave Sharp:I think there's also, like, in terms of adoption, there's a trust factor, because you're trusted in the industry that people are not gonna feel that their work is gonna the quality of their work is gonna deteriorate because it's being offered to them by somebody who doesn't really understand, like, architecture and doesn't know how to put a really beautiful building together. Like, that's always the kind of the the worry. And I think, you know, I talk to a lot of technology and product companies that are trying to sell to architects, and they're coming to me going, Dave, how do we sell to architects? You know architects. And I'm just like, you kinda just have to be in the like, you Yeah.
Dave Sharp:It's hard to come into the from the outside. Like, the we're we're not like a trusting industry that's gonna take what you're selling us, like, on board, like, instantly. You know?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. That's very true. Yeah. That's definitely bought us a lot of, yep. It's opened a lot of doors having the reputation we have.
Chris Gilbert:And people know that we're, like, we are pretty, like, anal retentive about details, and we, like, care about building systems, like, yeah, care so much that we put, like, a couple of $1,000,000 into a factory, like, just because we couldn't get we couldn't quite get the window system we wanted. So we're like, well, we'll go do it ourselves. So it's just like, yeah. Yeah. You're right.
Chris Gilbert:That's definitely true.
Dave Sharp:The historical origin of a brand was it was a thing that made you trust that the thing wasn't shit. You know? Like, this thing is not gonna poison me or this thing is gonna be built to a certain amount of quality because it's got this thing that I believe means it signifies some quality. And, like, to this day, that's still what the brand is on your buildings. They come with a level of, like, a certain guarantee to them
Chris Gilbert:of Definitely.
Dave Sharp:Quality. Right? And I think that's like, you can't underestimate how hard it is for some strange unheard of low brand awareness company to come into the architecture world and say, like, trust what we're trying to give you, how as your business model changes and you sort of slightly shift away from the things that you did to kind of build that brand image, that's probably a challenge for a separate conversation about, like, how do you, I guess, like, continue to reinforce that standing in the architecture world while at the same time having a sort of a little bit of a vibe of, like, outstanding in the architecture world is kind of, like, pretty low on our list of priorities. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. It's one of those, like, things to balance. Right?
Chris Gilbert:Yeah. Definitely. And ideally, like, the product speaks for itself at the end of the day. Like, you know, the firms that are, reaching out to us and designing with the suite of, kind of components that we've got are like like, they're really, really, really good firms.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. That's like that's
Chris Gilbert:the key. So it's just like once you start getting known in there
Dave Sharp:leverage their brands.
Chris Gilbert:Yeah.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Right? Because we had a strong enough presence to get it out there to right hands, and now it's, like, got a life of its own from a perception standpoint. It's like, oh, they use it, and they use it, and that sort of thing.
Chris Gilbert:That's exactly right. Exactly right. Which means it needs to be at super high quality. And, again, it's not well, it's definitely not a cheap solution. It's like architectural prefab.
Chris Gilbert:You know? That's high end. And then over time, this way, I was we're gonna say we're gonna bring in other manufacturers who who we've vetted and kind of sell them through put them on the same platform. Exactly that marketplace idea. But it'll be vetted and the work will be done.
Chris Gilbert:So you you a grad should be able to pick it up and just be like, yep. Okay. Today, Today, I'm doing a CLT building. I don't need to learn about stuff. I can just go and do it, and then away we go.
Chris Gilbert:Like, that's a that's a good word, you know?
Dave Sharp:Chris, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast.
Chris Gilbert:Our pleasure. Yeah. It was, it was great to catch up again.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Chris Gilbert of Archer. If you'd like to learn more about their studio, you can visit archer.com.au or follow them on Instagram at Archer followed by an underscore. Office Talk is hosted by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe, so to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit office dave sharp dot com. Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio.
Dave Sharp:That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time.
