Olaver
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more, or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today is Emlyn Olivier, the director of Olivier, a Melbourne based practice known for their residential and commercial work that balances the imperfect and the refined. In this episode, Emlyn and I discussed the benefits of working on hospitality projects in the early stages of their practice, which allowed them to have built work available to publish at a faster rate than typical residential projects.
Dave Sharp:We spoke about Olivier's unique approach to photographing residential projects during handover, working with professional photographers to document the project in a raw, imperfect, and yet restrained way. We looked at how these handover images have helped to raise awareness of the practice through the website and social media, as well as collating them into a print publication which ultimately led to a launch party. We looked at why he believes it's far better to collaborate with professional creatives, such as graphic designers and photographers to undertake the work
Emlyn Olaver:that they're best at
Dave Sharp:as opposed to trying to do everything yourself. And finally, we spoke about the importance of communicating your design values clearly and how he's developed a clear practice positioning statement over time. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Emlyn Olaver from Olaver. Emlen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Emlyn Olaver:Thank you, Dave. Good to be catching up.
Dave Sharp:So let's start off with a little bit of a backstory of the practice. Take me back to the early days. Like, walk me through the early of Olaver. I'm really keen to hear about it.
Emlyn Olaver:Well, firstly, I had to get everyone to learn how to pronounce my name.
Dave Sharp:Me included.
Emlyn Olaver:That's right. So as a practice, Oliver was established in 2015. I had done a couple of private projects before that, probably most notably shop ramen, which has been a project that sort of, carried me through over the years and kept keeps coming back. But, yeah, we started out in 2015, doing little fit outs like chopped ramen and some houses. Pretty quickly grew the practice from myself to myself and a student, then a couple of students, and then a grad, etcetera, etcetera.
Emlyn Olaver:So within, like, 2 years, I think I had 4 employees. Over that time, kept sort of growing the folio, working on a lot of renovations and restaurants. And then over the next sort of now, we're almost 9 years, we've just been, you know, doing the same thing, but trying to make each project a little better than the last, I guess. And their practice has grown as well, so we're now, a team of 7. And, yeah, we actually so we all of it was established in my front room in my house that I was renting in Thornbury at the time, but too many cocktails with my wife at home, so I, moved out to a little shared space in Collingwood.
Emlyn Olaver:Then after that, I moved to a space in Fitzroy, an old bank, which was above the tape furniture showroom. And that was really good and fun for us because we stripped out the, old bank offices and, had some fun painting and sort of building some furniture and joinery ourselves in there. So it was a really nice space for a few years, and then we've sort of done the same thing here in the space which I'm at at the moment, which is an old Brazilian capoeira studio. And, again, we've sorta we put in a lot of effort fitting it out, making a beautiful space that we're proud of and sort of represents us.
Dave Sharp:So the practice, I mean, it really grew pretty quickly. I mean, within 2 years to kinda go to 4 people, then a few years later on, like, up to 7. It's pretty fast growth. And, you know, usually when you're in that first couple of years, you haven't published a lot of finished work or put a lot of stuff out into the world, but you're obviously pretty busy clearly. What was different about your studio that you were finding that there was like real room for growth in those like first 2 years.
Emlyn Olaver:The projects were there for the taking, I guess, for lack of a better term. I, you know, I I was quite quick to try my hand at whatever was thrown at me. I was lucky enough to have really good support from people, particularly, you know, friends, people I'd worked with previously, other architects. So a lot of projects sorta came my way, and, I'd yeah. I sorta didn't say no to anything.
Emlyn Olaver:I probably still don't say no to anything maybe to my detriment. But, you know, that's given me the opportunity to grow in the way I have and sorta got our name out there, at least in the industry, but also amongst potential clients and stuff. And, yeah, meant that we could grow relatively rapidly.
Dave Sharp:And because you'd been involved in sort of the hospitality world previously, or I could let you I I don't know if you wanna tell the story of your background kind of, like, before architecture, but let's just say you're like, you know, you were involved in that world and you knew people in the hospitality space and stuff like that. Was that where the kind of the projects were coming from? Was it also the residential side as well? Like, were you finding that there was kind of a whole heap of friends that had residential projects kind of ready to go as well because that's pretty awesome.
Emlyn Olaver:The 2 probably earliest projects that are still on my website, I think, are ShopRaman, which I've already mentioned, and Thornbury House. Both of those came along via friends, that were actually, in a group of artists that I was a part of. It was, you know, a group of like minded people called the Serpents, which was a sort of group of people around the early 2000. And through that crew, there was lots of artists, other musicians, everything, so graphic designers. And those people have really sort of, come together and supported me throughout my career, actually, and I still collaborate with a lot of the people in that crew.
Emlyn Olaver:So yeah. So Shop Raman, there was another investor in the group, and he recommended me to Pat and Lydia who, run shop ramen. And, yes. So that was fantastic, and he's also been a supporter. He actually did the catering for the launch of handoverzine, which we did a couple of months back.
Emlyn Olaver:And then, yeah, Sonbury House, Matlock, another good friend and fantastic artist, introduced me to those guys. And, yeah, it was through that.
Dave Sharp:Do you find that at that stage, Shot Ramen became, you know, a pretty well known Melbourne institution, I suppose, in a way? Like, it's a really sort of well known hospitality brand. Did you find that the association with that brand that's so well known or was also just helpful in terms of building kind of the profile and reputation of the practice? With a residential project, if it gets seen in the media and on Instagram, like, that's really good. But like a hospitality project always has this sort of unique benefit that the public go there and they love being there, and it stands for something.
Emlyn Olaver:Yeah. Absolutely. Like, I mean, there's direct references I can make to other restaurants that I've worked on that have certainly sort of come from them having seen or enjoyed going to shop ramen, but then also plenty of clients say, oh, yeah. I noticed, you know, I might have been looking at your Instagram randomly, but then when they've dug a little deeper, they've seen I've done shop ramen. And I can't name a person in Melbourne who hasn't been to shop ramen that I know.
Emlyn Olaver:So, yeah. Everyone, you know, likes likes the experience that we were able to create there. But, also, I would say, you know, Pat and Lydia just run such an amazing sort of business. So, as much as, you know, I'm proud of the architecture there, it's it's the whole experience. And I think if that's rubbed off on me a little bit, fantastic.
Emlyn Olaver:I'm I'm lucky you to be involved.
Dave Sharp:I guess in that early stage then, you're still in that phase that a lot of practices are in where we're not photographing a lot of things that typically, like, we haven't finished a lot of things. We're in that kind of early era, but it wasn't such an issue because you had built this really great network in the creative scene in Melbourne that was like a really good place for projects to come from. I guess you do eventually end up facing that issue right where you are in a hurry to start showing the work that you're doing. And then there's challenges around that, right? And everyone's kind of thinking, how do we start to kind of give a sense of kind of what we're about as an architecture practice in those early days?
Emlyn Olaver:It goes back to the whole sort of architectural process as well, how long it takes to get a house built. Harking back to the hospitality thing, it's that's one other fantastic thing about the hospitality projects. They're done in, like, 6 months, and it's out there. And, you know, it's in broadsheet or whatever, and people can see the built works straight away and experience the built works straight away. So that makes a huge difference in terms of, needing to get things photographed, I guess, and needing to get things, documented and in magazines, etcetera.
Emlyn Olaver:And, yeah, I did shoot those early projects with some level of styling and, you know, furniture and all of that, but one of the main things for me has been the cost involved with photo shoots and in engaging the right people, getting the right stuff there. I see I see a huge value in that, but I simply couldn't justify the cost in my practice at that time, or, you know, it's it's still hard to swallow a lot of the time. Yeah. I moved towards doing more and more handover shoots, which were shoots wherein we'd get the photographer down just before the clients, moved in, and just get some shots of the house raw, in its sort of pre move in state with the landscape muddy, with curtain rails without curtains on them, you know, just not quite there. But I think it really does capture the actual architecture.
Emlyn Olaver:So we've really enjoyed doing that, and it sort of it started as something I did literally because I couldn't see myself getting the finished shots or the styled shots anytime soon, and it turned into something that I really wanted to do, and I really wanted to document the houses that way.
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Dave Sharp:To learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharp.com. So just to kind of clarify the point of the project. So it's at that handover stage. It's not completely done. It's like the time where nobody in their right mind is shooting photos of architecture, right, because it's kind of like the worst of both worlds in a way.
Dave Sharp:Like, it's not at this early sort of progress things, you know, stuff starting to happen, and it's also not at that beautifully refined landscape established kind of thing, it's just in this middle moment where no one does photography. It's like not it's not the dumb thing. So it's really interesting.
Emlyn Olaver:The funny thing about that though is it is it's a real sweet spot in the project. So, the actual act of handover when we go, we meet the clients, we meet the builder, we have some beers or pop some champagne, and everyone's enjoying the project as is. But it's so bare and quiet, and it's sort of really interesting to inhabit the the houses at that time, and and no one gets to do that. So as much as the house is designed for the furniture and the occupants, it's quite interesting to see how it plays without all those bits and pieces.
Dave Sharp:Kinda goes against a lot of the conventional wisdom about styling and the client occupying the space and some of the important things like landscaping and stuff like that. I mean, just in terms of so that maybe people could pull up a project that would be a good example of, like, your best sort of handover set. What would be one that would be worth, like, for the sake of this conversation to have a look at?
Emlyn Olaver:Look. One of the ones that has drawn a lot of, interest is Silver House, which is a house up in, Eltham that we did a few years ago. And my mate, Josh Robenstone, shot that. And we went up there for maybe 2 hours, ran around, took a bunch of photos. Neither us, I don't think either us really thought it was going anywhere fast because it did look so unfinished.
Emlyn Olaver:But when he showed me the proofs of those photos, I was like, these look amazing, man. We put them on the Instagram, and I didn't expect anyone to be interested. But straight away, you know, someone slid in my DMs and asked to publish it. I said no because I'm waiting to do a styled shoot, but I haven't got around to doing the styled shoot because those photos have done so much justice to the project anyway.
Dave Sharp:That's so interesting. I think traditionally, if a client of mine, if an architect would have finished a project, but then the client's stuff wasn't very good or they, you know, they just weren't keen to style it, like it was just so you ended up with this empty project. We'd get the photos of something and I'd be like, oh, this is a bloody disaster, we can't use these for anything, you know, I would have had this impression of, oh, it's like, what we gonna do with these? Where I'm changing my mind with this because of looking at these photos that you've produced and really, it depends on the purpose of them because I think the project that's finished but is like missing furniture and missing objects and has, like, incomplete moments, that's sort of traditionally seen as like a bit of a, like, oh, it's it's not ready. We can't publish them.
Dave Sharp:We can't like put them into awards entries or whatever. But I think that's probably missing the point of like how photos can be used to show a project these days. Of course, we'd like to think about that media side and things like that, but what's really interesting to me is how much you're just embracing the handover sets. You know? Like, it's really you
Emlyn Olaver:know what I mean? Well, to your point, like, I mean, I when I first started to practice, when I was in uni even, the first the thing I aimed for was to get a project in a magazine. I've got so many magazines in this studio. I love print media. And that's, you know, that was actually a driving factor.
Emlyn Olaver:I thought, you know, that means I'm doing something good. I'm doing something that's worthwhile here. But even in the sort of 10 years or 12 years or whatever it is since I finished uni, the the media landscape has changed so much. And magazines, I still I I love print media. I still buy lots of magazines, but it's not the only way to get out there.
Emlyn Olaver:And I think, you know, if I'm thinking about it a little more deeply, it's I I don't I'd love to get those photos in magazines, but I don't need it to be. I'm happy to put them on my Instagram, put them on my website, show prospective clients the photos, and that's an ends to itself. It doesn't need to be any more than that. And then that's why probably why I took it to the point of making the handover booklet or zine or book. I can't decide what it's called.
Emlyn Olaver:I kept on telling everyone. But, but with the book, it's, you know, collecting those, handover photos, and I I feel like it really does elevate them again. So, you know, I'm yes. It's not a magazine published or a book published by, Thames and Hudson or whatever, but or Rizzoli. But it's a book published by me that I'm happy to show people and, you know, I hope captures what we do to some extent, and that's the important thing.
Emlyn Olaver:It's really displaying the architecture.
Dave Sharp:We'll get onto the book in a second. I think, like, it's such a key element because it's about how you've really, like, created a consistent concept. Almost like or it's almost like it's almost like you've created, like, a fine art series or, like, it's a photography project as much as it is like architecture. I don't know if that's the right way to think about it necessarily, but it's like you're kind of creating an exercise of like creativity and photography, and it's almost like a separate thing as part of like studying and documenting these projects. And it just has this different kind of purpose to it where it could be accompanied by a book and a launch party.
Dave Sharp:And I could see it being an exhibition and like, you know, it has these sorts of kind of elements to it because it isn't the conventional sort of project photography approach. And I cannot quite figure out why it's different, but it just feels different. And I think that's just because of the way you've kind of set the stage for it and done it as this recurring thing across projects in a really consistent manner. I feel like that's what makes it kind of feel, I don't know, I'm struggling to work this out.
Emlyn Olaver:So am I. Don't worry. I think, you know, and moving towards talking about the book, it's, I had the photos. I said to my friends, Tristan and Rick, who have done my branding since day dot and who I've collaborated with since day dot. They did the shop ramen branding and logo and stuff as well, for instance.
Emlyn Olaver:So I gave Tristan and Rick the content and said to them to take it and see what they can come up with. They really they came back to me with sort of an initial layout, and they said, we think it should present like a photo book. And I was like, yeah. Absolutely. I think that's the best way to present it.
Emlyn Olaver:Celebrate the celebrate the photographs, and, if people are interested in the architecture as well, that's great.
Dave Sharp:One of the things that I find also really interesting about it is the accessibility for your practice because we typically, as we like get more and more projects as a practice over time and our budget, if we're doing things properly in terms of architecture photography, like we're working with a really good photographer and we're working with a stylist and stuff like that, unless we have like $120 to spend in a year on photos, like we're gonna have to end up only shooting a very sort of tight selection of projects, like maybe 1 or 2 projects. And that leaves a whole bunch of questions about these other projects where it's like, what are we gonna do with them? And sometimes people go like, oh, maybe we go with like a cheaper photographer or we don't style them, or we don't shoot them, or we only do like a little partial shoot and stuff, and it's all these very like, kind of compromised sort of outcomes. Whereas like, what I love about what you're doing is that the 2 hour handover shoot, you can get a professional photographer to do that. And it's a really creative project for them.
Dave Sharp:So I feel like there'd be enthusiasm from photographers to give it a crack. They normally look at a half day shoot as like, oh, what what a pain in the butt. Half day shoot. But if it's, like, oh, a 2 hour shoot, as part of this, like, series, it's like this totally you know, you've spun it completely.
Emlyn Olaver:The other thing with that as well with the photographers, as opposed to a more solid shoot, is, we're getting the photographers getting photographers on-site, generally sight unseen, and we're not really directing them. We're letting them walk around and see what they see in the project and take some shots. And then postproduction, there's barely any. Like, we're not photoshopping out all the GPOs, for instance. It's staying pretty raw.
Dave Sharp:We want it to look a little a little rough, a little Yeah. A little rough around the edges.
Emlyn Olaver:Yeah.
Dave Sharp:If it looks too clean, it's not gonna look handover enough.
Emlyn Olaver:Exactly. A little bit of dirt on the windows.
Dave Sharp:A little dirt on the windows. Exactly. Yep. A little a little muddy a little muddy boot print is not a bad thing. And, yeah, I guess, like, photographers must enjoy the, like, the flexibility of that, and it's a nice, like, kinda low pressure gig, isn't it?
Emlyn Olaver:They know we're gonna document it again as well. So, and, generally, I'm trying to get the same person to do the hand overshoot as does the final shoot. So, yeah, there's some consistency there as well.
Dave Sharp:It sort of enables you to shoot more of your work, but do it in this way where you're not trying to sort of make a budget stretch further than it should to accommodate more projects than you're not being limited by that, which is great because it means that you actually put up a good coverage of the work that you guys are doing. Right?
Emlyn Olaver:Yep. Yep. Yeah. No. It's it's definitely more cost effective, so that's obviously a great benefit of it.
Emlyn Olaver:But, the in terms of being able to shoot more, I would say, yeah, the budget comes into play, but it's really the timeline thing more than anything else. Like, it just takes so long to shoot projects. So if I always wait, then nothing gets shot. And, I mean, even right now, I think I've got 8 projects that need to be shot, and I simply didn't have time to do handover shoots for all of those as well. So it's just like trying to squeeze everything in.
Emlyn Olaver:This is another way to squeeze just a little bit more documentation of what we're doing.
Dave Sharp:I feel like, you know, other architects listening will be like, but what's the difference between this and when I go to site visits and take my iPhone photos and put them on Instagram and they suck? Like why is this cool and why is what I doing crap? What are the reasons that's the difference? Like is it it's the sweet spot moment of the project which you spoke about? It's also the engagement of the professional, like super super good architectural photographer.
Dave Sharp:That's, like, a kind of a key key ingredient. Right?
Emlyn Olaver:Yeah. Absolutely. I think, using my own photos to try and document this, it'd completely dumb it down. There's no way I'd be doing a book of it, not just because I'm a terrible photographer. But if you can't see the value in getting someone else's lens on your work, then I don't yeah.
Emlyn Olaver:It doesn't it just doesn't make sense to me. I I other people have a better eye for this stuff than I do. And, even though this isn't, as you say, the styled expensive, landscape, beautiful shoot for Bell Magazine, This is a shoot for me, and I still wanna present the work in the best light I can.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. When we were talking a minute ago about the usefulness of the images, you're making a really great point about how this series of images, it may not be the magazine series, but it's like on the website, it's on Instagram and it's doing the job it needs to do in those areas. So I'm keen to ask a little bit about that, but also I just have to add that, of course, then eventually somewhere down the line when the project is really ready and the landscaping is beautiful and all, and the furniture is perfect, like you do come back and you do the final sort of set of photos. So it's not at the exclusion of that publishable set of images at the end, but it's just the little progress point where you get to get double the sort of value out of the project in terms of this early marketing point, and then you get this sort of later on finish thing as well.
Emlyn Olaver:Yeah. I mean, I think so. But to play devil's advocate or to think about some of the advice I've gotten in the past, I've been told not to put a project out there too much if I wanna see it published in a magazine.
Dave Sharp:Do you feel like that's been a problem?
Emlyn Olaver:I don't. I can't say definitively, but I'm thinking of one project now, which is going in houses magazine in a couple of months. That's I've put that all over Instagram and stuff, and they didn't see any problem with it. Maybe people get sick of it. If there is a thing, like, you do notice if you've put, you know, a similar view up on Instagram too many times, you won't get as many likes.
Dave Sharp:There is an oversaturation aspect. And I I think there are practices and conversations we've had on the podcast about the importance of keeping these projects under wraps until you've got that big reveal moment. Like, I remember Studio Graham talking about how they, like, keep it secret until it's, like, in the awards because they don't want jurors to be sick of looking at it, which they found that gives them like a little bit of an edge, you know, which I thought was interesting. Caitlin Butler's episode, we're talking about how the impact of Nielsen Marrickville Farmhouse because it had never been seen until it was on the cover of the magazine. I think it's a interesting point.
Dave Sharp:You're not just creating a set of vague iPhone shots of a bunch of plasterboard getting put in or some concrete being poured. You're creating highly professional images, similar compositions to the final set by the same photographer. There's a lot of similarity, and you're kind of almost blowing the scoop on your own project in a in a sense.
Emlyn Olaver:I get why from a marketing perspective, it might seem, you know, it it's probably not best practice to to put the same thing up or, you know, show too much of something because you wanna hold it in till it's completely ready to publish or whatever. But by the same token, there's there's so many aspects of the reason why I'm putting stuff on Instagram. I'm congratulating the builder who's worked so hard to build this thing. They often couldn't give a shit about the magazine. I'm thanking the clients who have entrusted their homes to us, and I wanna get that out there as soon as possible.
Emlyn Olaver:I'm thanking the plumber who did an awesome gutter detail. That's you, Jake. So the the the fact that, it might not be the most marketing savvy thing to do is sorta maybe that's not the best thing to be guided by. I'm I'm guided by you know, I'm proud of this work. I'm proud of the people who've been involved in it, and I wanna put it out there.
Dave Sharp:As a cynical marketing podcast host, I think it's the opposite. I think we're talking about how it's really, really good marketing. Like, that's that's what we're that's what we hear about. So I think what we're talking about is that there may be potential unintended consequences that we sort of are worth giving consideration to in terms of what impact does that have later on down the line with projects. But I think when you take the total balance of things, I think it feels like obviously the kind of the handover series is like a really positive addition.
Dave Sharp:And it sounds like it's taken the pressure off to kind of live or die by the print magazine, you know, because it's giving you that kind of independence. But I think most importantly, you found a way to create content for social media that is really elevated and really photographic that isn't just final sets of photos, it's something else. And I think people struggle to find that other thing. Like, what do you post on Instagram, you know, in those long gaps between projects where what are you meant to do? And people, you know, spend a lot of money on visualization or whatever, but beyond that, like the options are out there pretty limited.
Emlyn Olaver:It's funny you mentioned that because as you say, it's it's sort of one step in the process, the handover, whereas the, the final shoot's probably the last step in the, you know, public process of of architecture. Whereas, you've just mentioned renders, which are, you know, the completely other end of thing. And I I adamantly did not post renders because, yeah, I I feel like I would prefer I'd prefer to share other things which are more exciting or more real, than renders in my opinion. So I think, yeah, this this gives me an opportunity to put ourselves out there or, you know, show what we're doing without having to resort to AI or renders.
Dave Sharp:I know. I'm interested in the sort of the anti render attitude because I think a lot of really cool young practices are very heavily into renders like visualization and like very, very aesthetic visualization has become like super widespread. And so, yeah, it's really interesting to hear that you're you're kind of like, not jumping on that bandwagon.
Emlyn Olaver:I think our in house renders are great. We're we're always able tell the story to the clients of what the house is gonna be, and and the builders are so interested in seeing them as well to sort of understand what we're aiming for. But they're still not real, And the architectural process is so much more than, you know, a render a rendering. It's there's so much that goes into it, and it's, for me, it's really important not to put work out there or suggest to people that this is what we do when it's not actually a realistic representation of what we actually do, because the render is not real.
Dave Sharp:Do you think that the renders that people are putting out there are, like, sad to judge sometimes, but, you know, cool like practices, do you think they're still pretty far off reality? Because obviously there's that sort of side of visualization that's very like developers and multi res and stuff and that's clearly like, you know, that's clearly miles away from reality in a lot of cases. But like when we're talking about, you know, really cool, like little residential project in a beautiful landscape in the bush, like, you know, looking like a beautiful Rory Gardner photo or something, it's like, that is still kind of a bit questionable sometimes.
Emlyn Olaver:No. Don't get me wrong. I I think they can look amazing. What, what I'm saying is, I don't, like, I don't think they can ever actually match real life or the reality of not every timber board in a shiplap panel is gonna, match. You know?
Emlyn Olaver:That sense of realism and I think it's it's less about the perfection of realism or the or mimicking real life. It's more about mimicking the, mistakes and, accepting that, you know, that angle's not really gonna be able to be achieved, in reality. I don't know if we need to.
Dave Sharp:No. No. I think it's interesting because I think there's, like, this broad theme in terms of a lot of the stuff that you've said. And I think actually I was gonna ask you about this as well because it's written on your website. You've got this whole thing about the balance of austerity and playfulness, which I wanna probably ask you about later, but this balance of the imperfect and the refined, the rough and the smooth.
Dave Sharp:So what is going on with you, man? In terms of, like, this real streak towards, we like to show these kind of rough edges. What's just, without making any sort of like big grand statements about architecture, I'm just in terms of getting inside your head in terms of thinking about like why you see this as being, like, one of those fundamentals of Olivier rather than kind of, like, what you see maybe out there as a sort of, like, the widespread way things are done, like, in the industry?
Emlyn Olaver:Yeah. So I think the imperfect and refined, you know, the handover shoot's a really good example of that just to talk about it. Basically, they're they're not perfect. There's as we've already said, there's dirt on the windows or there's dirt on the floor or dirt on the walls. There's dirt everywhere.
Emlyn Olaver:But there's you can see the refinement behind the dirt, and you can see how the architecture project's coming together, and that, that, you know, the the imperfections don't undermine the quality of of everything else. They actually might highlight the the quality of the build work.
Dave Sharp:I closely follow, like, what do people in the industry sort of like, what's this discussion around perfection and imagery and aesthetics that kind of goes on? The architecture I really like seeing that I I think is really represented well. It does tend towards that sort of perfectionist, sometimes austere sort of look. I think people, you know, who listen to the podcast know that, like, I am kind of into that a little bit, and I think a lot of us are. But then there's like a really fair argument against that that a lot of architects have and a lot of people, like, around the industry of just going like, what's up with this sort of like austere, sterile, overly perfect thing?
Dave Sharp:Like, that's not very human. That's not very real. And it's not very relatable to like real life, you know? But I haven't really found that many people that have been able to kind of solve that problem in a way that still makes the work and the imagery and the brand feel, like, elevated and high end. Of course, you can just make things really, like, sloppy and be like, well, great.
Dave Sharp:It's not perfect glossy images, as they say, but it's like yeah. But it also doesn't look very good. And people who have really good taste in, like, design are now gonna think you're just kind of sort of sloppy and, you know, run of the mill. Right? So I think that's where my fascination is with this approach.
Dave Sharp:It's like, it's kind of solving that, getting it's getting away from that glossy flawless thing, but doing it in a way that doesn't feel like going away from that elevated sort of approach.
Emlyn Olaver:As I've said, even though there's imperfections in the shoot or it it's not even necessarily the imagery, it's the approach as well wherein, you know, we're not taking the perfect approach, which might be to style the shoot or to wait for the landscape to grow. We're taking a sort of different route, but we're coming to the same ends and, you know, getting this well, maybe not the same result, but getting a result that works for this practice and for what we're trying to say.
Dave Sharp:There's another thing, I guess, that goes on in photography at the moment. It's kind of the current way things are done where that staging and, you know, aspects of photography, they they can be kind of a little bit unnatural too as well. Right? So I guess, like, it's another way to prevent from sort of veering into that territory too. I kinda wanna ask about the other side of that statement that's on your website, which I think is kind of interesting, which is like, talked about the imperfect and the refined, but also talking about the word, bounce between austerity and playfulness.
Dave Sharp:And austerity has a very, very negative connotation, but like the architects of the world are more drawn to that more austere sort of side of things, I think. To address austerity directly and actually make it part of your value pitch is really like, you know, is really interesting as well, man. Like, what's the thinking behind that?
Emlyn Olaver:John Pawson and David Chipperfield are probably 2 of my favorite architects. Don't know how playful either of them are, but could definitely you can see the austerity in in in their work. But, you know, I I said I don't know how playful they are, but I've listened to plenty of pod podcasts with them and and read up on all their work and stuff. And, you know, Chipfield's got his bar down in, Portugal, and, John Pawson came from the fashion world. So it's there's there's that balance in life where, you know, you might present an austere facade or create austere spaces, but, there can be a playfulness to other aspects or the way those spaces are inhabited, or the way they're juxtaposed.
Emlyn Olaver:I when I make that statement talking about my practice or talking about this practice, I I guess I'm talking about creating spaces that are austere in that they they do what they need to do. They're not necessarily, there's not extra sort of crap, for lack of a better term, for for no for no reason. They're they can be austere in that they're purely creating a sort of background for their inhabitants or for the for the restaurant or for whatever's going on in them. But then you come with the playfulness, and that's, allowing, you know, different moments to make the spaces more interesting, but without being frivolous in doing so. I think that comes a lot through our architecture in in the way we juxtapose materials and and, the way we use light in our spaces.
Dave Sharp:What's your thoughts on manifestos, man? I feel like this kinda has, like, a a little mini manifesto, and it's like I'm obviously just diving in on one particular, you know, like part of your website and stuff like that. But it's important for a practice to have an attitude, right? Like to have like, to be sort of saying something about what our work's about. And I think so many architects that I know are listening would be like definitely struggling with that.
Dave Sharp:So many of my clients struggle with that. So many when you actually sit down, it's so easy to describe how you work with clients and you go to all these sort of things like, oh, well, you know, we respond to their brief and listen to them and do all this sort of stuff. But then it's like, okay, cool, yeah, awesome. But like, tell us about your buildings, man. Like, you know, let's talk about the work.
Dave Sharp:How would you like describe your design approach? And people are just like stumped. It's like, Oh, you know, just kind of Yeah.
Emlyn Olaver:All of that. It's all it's talking about balancing these different, aspects of both life and and work. And and yeah. It it definitely is an approach, that's in the back of my mind, and, you know, I hope it sort of comes through in the work. Is it a manifesto?
Emlyn Olaver:I remember in 3rd or 4th year uni, we had to do a manifesto, and I might I called mine on my way, and it was supposed to be, again, have 2 meetings as in on the way I work, but I'm on my way to having an opinion or having a manifesto. And I still think I'm on my way. I'm not quite there yet. There's there's something that's coming together as as I keep practicing and as, the team keep pulling the work together. But, in terms of having a strong idea about how we wanna approach our work, I think it is really important.
Emlyn Olaver:And I might not overstate it to clients or anything, but it's there. If if people are prodding me about that or questioning about that, then there's definitely something that I've got to say about those things.
Dave Sharp:Was it a really slow journey to sort of arrive at these ideas over time? Like, it's just this sort of iterative thing that gradually kind of evolves? Or was it one of those things where you're like, I wanna start a practice because I believe a, b, c, d. Finally, now's my time. You know?
Emlyn Olaver:I would I would say that, sort of that rough and smooth and imperfect and refined, even that thing's always been part of my personality, I guess. I am a Gemini on the cusp of Taurus. Although I know nothing at all about star signs, but the Gemini is the twin apparently. So, yeah, there's definitely two sides there. But before I did architecture, I did cinema studies, and I felt like that really sorta probably helped me understand how to look or interrogate things from an aesthetic, and technical perspective.
Emlyn Olaver:So I feel like that background's really helped and really probably has helped me, have a better grasp on how I see my work or how I see the work of this practice.
Dave Sharp:So could you give, like, a a talk through that sort of interrogation a little bit?
Emlyn Olaver:It's asking yourself what you like and what you like about it. And it's and this this stuff happened. This isn't sort of overt. This is this goes on in the back of your head. But being, being able to have a strong understanding of of what ticks the boxes for you, I think, is really good.
Emlyn Olaver:And then being able to do that and being able to bring that to the party with clients and and teams and consultants and stuff, I think is really important.
Dave Sharp:For you, is that formed more by looking at your own work and analyzing it or is it more formed by kind of that critical thinking about the work that you like?
Emlyn Olaver:I think it's probably the latter, but also not necessarily architectural work or not necessarily, you know, the work of my peers for instance, but, you know, I was just in Japan for a couple of weeks. And as we all do, when I was in Japan, I was just looking at everything going, this is so fucking good. Just about everything from, you know, the the architectural toilet blocks, but also the shitty stairwells and stuff like that and, you know, seeing and appreciating how things go together.
Dave Sharp:I think it's an interesting idea because I do feel people really struggle with that idea of, like, how do you put some terms around your philosophy as a designer? And it's saying that I think they don't use that muscle for a while, and then it comes time to need to use it when, like, Dave is telling them they need to, like, sort out their marketing brand strategy, and then they're like, oh shit, like, we need we didn't warm up to this, like, this is really this is really hard. But I'm always trying to think about like, well, what do I do with a client like that, with an architect who is stuck, who does need help doing it? I don't just wanna like tell them what I think their work is. It's a process you have to go on, but I've sort of wondered, is it literally like putting together like a mood board of stuff that we like?
Dave Sharp:I know it feels like a weird sort of thing, but I'm just yeah. I'm just interested because I feel like you've, like, really summarized it really succinctly and then reinforced it with photography and with some of those other things. So, yeah, it's interesting.
Emlyn Olaver:Look. I'd love to say that that's all intentional, but, I guess it's it's been a pretty organic process. You know, the way it comes together over time has thankfully sort of fallen in the right place as it goes on. But I think it also goes back to sir, you know, we've already talked about sort of some of my background and my friends and stuff, and I think that helps a lot too. My mates keep me honest, and, you know, particularly from sort of the art world that, I was around growing up and stuff.
Emlyn Olaver:It was you you can't really bullshit about the work that you're doing. So, you've gotta you you've gotta have an opinion, and you've gotta be true to what you're saying, I guess.
Dave Sharp:Because I think you need to be really, really good at describing your work in the art world, don't you? I mean, like, you have to have a really clear idea of how to do that because I think, you know, if the average architect was gonna, like, describe their artwork if they were an artist, it would just be like, I work across multiple mediums and colors and canvases and sometimes I do sculptures. And it would just be like, Yeah, but like what's it about? I think people just sort of generally just talk about what they do, but it's like, but how would you really get into defining what that work kind of is? I like when architects have used art terms like a body of work, you know, for an architectural kind of portfolio.
Dave Sharp:I think I like when practices sort of think about it in that way, like, it's a body of work, and we're trying to manage it consistently. And I get a feeling that you kind of sort of see, like, your projects a bit that way as well.
Emlyn Olaver:Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's definitely a body of work. And while I at the beginning in this, I said, you know, we're trying to make each project a little bit better than the last, but I don't think that that was necessarily the right way of putting it. I think what we're trying to do is make sure all the projects are excellent in their own, in their own way.
Emlyn Olaver:And they do form a body of work, and they speak to one another. It's funny. I I know you often ask the question of, of
Dave Sharp:Yeah. I know where this is going.
Emlyn Olaver:Yeah. What's your style?
Dave Sharp:I'm a broken bloody record on that one.
Emlyn Olaver:Yeah. But, I mean, I and same old thing. I say, you know, we don't necessarily have a style. There's a lot of if you look on my website, there's a lot of different, projects going on there, but we do have an approach. And the approach is tries to be as consistent as possible, and that's what I think brings the projects together and makes it a body of work.
Dave Sharp:Since you've baited me into talking about the style topic, which my question about it is, like, the way that clients engage with it because I think, like, there's this hesitation towards all this like reluctance to define things as like having an approach or a style because sometimes it's framed as like inherently anti client. I think that's one of the sort of kind of cop out excuses that architects make for like not thinking more critically about their body of work, if we're being honest. Like just in my own experience talking to lots of architects, it is an anti client. The client is what attracts them to your work surely. Like it's the, oh, I see like something about the projects that they do, like, I kind of it it resonates with me.
Dave Sharp:I don't know, like, it's you could determine it from looking at it as a group of projects, like
Emlyn Olaver:It's funny that though, because I have clients come to me who say, you know, really love your work and stuff, and then we start talking about their project. They're like, we really don't like timber. And I'm like, in all my projects, there's feathers.
Dave Sharp:Or You're like, have you heard of my style?
Emlyn Olaver:Exactly. Or they come to me and say, you know, we really want this specific marvel or something. And, you know, that that's really important to them, and we find a way to funnel that into a project, those thoughts and ideas. But we always say to our clients that all that sort of stuff comes second to making the project right in terms of how it functions. I know that's a really obvious answer to the style question, but, we're we're chasing the function first and foremost, and then we're worried about the other stuff.
Emlyn Olaver:And and by doing that, you're driven to creating a style anyway, I think, to some extent.
Dave Sharp:You're gonna have to sell me a little harder on that. I'm not quite buying the relationship between functions like, you know, substance over style and that then leading to a kind of a sort of consistency and approach, if we could call it that.
Emlyn Olaver:They they might come with these ideas that might not necessarily, you know, be something that we've tested before. It might not necessarily be what we'd be naturally inclined to do. But we have sort of quite a direct process, which we talk to our clients about in terms of how we think about a project. And in that process, we talk about flow, light, and texture. So those key sort of tenets of our design, work together to create a style, I would say.
Dave Sharp:Right. Okay. So just so I understand, like, if the clients are bringing these kind of really disparate elements and they're going, we hate wood and we love this like weird marble and all this sort of stuff, there's a resistance there because the integrity of the project and the kind of the consistency and a little bit of a pushback there on what that client is asking for, for their own benefit, because you believe that, you know, there's what they're asking for and then what they truly want and those are kind of potentially 2 different things. So you have the conversation about those three aspects of the functionality. Just like explain that a little bit to me just in terms of how that works.
Emlyn Olaver:So we talk about flow in terms of how, how the space is inhabited. So that's where we sort of start off, and we're and by by talking about flow for ArcSIS, we're really just talking about the plan. We're trying to get the function right in plan. We're trying to make sure that the, flow is, is ideal. And then we say we layer on the light.
Emlyn Olaver:So we're thinking about how best to bring best to bring light into the space, both natural and artificial light. And then we start layering textures. So we're not worried about materiality until we get to that point. And often, by the time you're at that point, there's textures or materials that are going to speak best to the flow and the light that you've created, I guess.
Dave Sharp:Interesting. You try to sort of steer it into a sort of a flowchart of think about this, then this, then this so that you don't end up kind of, like, putting the cart before the horse. Yeah. Exactly. Having client conversations about texture and materiality too soon in the piece.
Dave Sharp:Is that where clients can well, now without, you know, now we're not wanting to like diss clients. We're not dissing architects before we announce clients. Do you feel like the way that they sort of think and prioritize like, texture materiality and try to, like, you know, bring that to the table can be one of those things that can, like, start to throw things off a little bit?
Emlyn Olaver:No. No. I actually don't think so. Like, I gave that example of a client who said they don't want any timber, and I'm like, great. Awesome.
Emlyn Olaver:Let's do a project that doesn't have any timber in it. I I'm interested in the client's ideas, but to the earlier point, those ideas about materiality and are not important to us until we've worked out those other things, which we we place higher in the sort of hierarchy of creating spaces, I guess. You know, oftentimes as well, clients really want us you know, we talked about renders earlier. Clients really want to see how the thing's gonna look. But I say, you know, it doesn't matter how it looks just yet.
Emlyn Olaver:Let's work out how it functions. Let's work out how it flows. And let's work out how the what areas we want to be really filled with natural light or what areas we wanna be a little bit darker. And then you you sort of have that investment in the project and in the design before you started talking about materiality.
Dave Sharp:We were talking earlier about how you have this kind of ethos idea, and then you like communicate it through imagery and through these sorts of like subtle things. I just wonder, like, in terms of, like, sharing this idea with the world, is it just as simple as, we write it on our website or we put it in our fake proposal document as, like, our process or is is it explored through other things? Like, is there photography or drawings or models? Like, is there other kinda elements to
Emlyn Olaver:it? Definitely tending towards the latter. With that particular flow light and texture sort of ethos that we're starting to push more and more or starting to understand more and more and integrate more and more into our process, It's sorta it's something that's been in the back of my mind for years, but now I'm starting to verbalize it more, and yet forms part of faith proposals or forms part of early concept design, and, it becomes a backbone to the project. But then how can we articulate that for, you know, the wider world or for for prospective clients rather than people who are are who are actually speaking with us. That's something that we're considering and looking at with our team at the moment with
Dave Sharp:Yeah. So it's like a graphic design creative challenge. It's like a photography creative challenge, like there's a few things there because like, I think if you just like write something on a website, it's good, but it's not gonna be widely absorbed by an audience. So I feel like you kind of need to make these things a bit like multifaceted and take on a few different types of media as well, so that it can kind of like get to people in lots of different ways. I mean, you mentioned there about how you have this new sort of approach and then you go to trick, you go to your graphic design, your branding people.
Dave Sharp:I think it's really stood out to me that the importance that you've put on doing things in that kind of professional way, even from an early stage, Interested in exploring that a little bit more because I guess it's another one of these things about like, how do you set yourself apart as a younger practice? And I feel like graphic design, branding, you know, really great photography, they're all really important ways of doing it, right?
Emlyn Olaver:Had a logo. So before Olivet came about, I was going to go into partnership with a friend of mine, and Rick did a logo for that. It was an awesome branding, and, you know, he did a whole a whole branding suite, and it was awesome. Unfortunately, Steph decided to up and leave and go to New York, so I was stuck on my own. And but, yeah, before I think it was before I'd even actually quit my job and started all of there as a practice.
Emlyn Olaver:I I talked to, Tristan and Rick about doing a new logo and setting up a website and stuff. And I think, you know, lots of people do that themselves when when they're starting out, and I understand why. It's just another expense, but it's like, do we tell prospective clients to just build the house themselves? We don't. We we want, clients to value the professions and value other people's input.
Emlyn Olaver:So I think, you know, obviously, I'm an architect, so I've got strong aesthetic sort of direction and stuff, but I'm by no means a professionally trained graphic designer. I'd give it a shot, but I I can't put it together. I don't have the ideas. I don't have the training. I don't have the background that, graphic designers do.
Emlyn Olaver:So I definitely see value in paying people to do what they're good at and for me to focus on what I'm good at.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Absolutely. I think that, like, willingness to make those investments is very, very important to, like, separating yourself from the masses of like young practices or just even small practices in general. There's a lot of them out there. And it's at that stage of the journey where it's like the biggest risk to invest that 10, 20, 30, 40, whatever we're talking in terms of branding or graphic design, or just even like portrait photography of yourself or your team or whatever, like, all of that stuff, it can be absolutely, like, intimidating, but it's it's pretty important.
Dave Sharp:I think you made a great point there about, like, it's about being consistent with what you're, like, what you're advocating clients do with their homes and their projects.
Emlyn Olaver:Well, it's funny. Tristan threw it, back in my face the other day. We're working on the website at the moment, and we were gonna renovate it. And, you know, I'd accepted the faith proposal to renovate it, and inevitably, like often happens in construction projects, he said it's gonna be better as a new build. And, yeah, it's costing me a bit more, but I agree with him.
Emlyn Olaver:So that's what we're doing.
Dave Sharp:Think about a place like ShopRaman or whatever. If they didn't spend, like, the right amount of money on the design of the interior or they, you know, designed their menus on Canva or they did, like, whatever, it would be like, what a disaster. That brand would not take off. I I think it plays a big role in the overall perception. I was about to say no matter how good the food is, I know that that's not quite true.
Emlyn Olaver:With shop ramen, Lydia and Pat, they're obviously you know, they've been really successful in in what they do, but they've always sort of invested in, the right team around them, and they've got a great respect for, other people. You know? I've done their house recently as well. So having that respect for other professionals or, you know, staying in your own lane, to put it sort of in a different way, is really important. And I think that you look at successful businesses and it's beyond architecture.
Emlyn Olaver:You know, successful businesses are ones that respect that they might not be the best at certain aspects, and they go to other people. They go to the best people for the particular thing they're after.
Dave Sharp:That's very true. There's often that reliance on those good relationships with, you know, good creative people that sort of surround these practices. Not just like obviously in the projects, but I'm thinking about the brand and marketing and imagery and writing and creating those opportunities for other people to like do what they're really good at. It's definitely like a mentality shift. It does cost money and it's like some practices see it as like a real necessity and others just aren't as They just don't necessarily see it that way.
Dave Sharp:But I think if you get it, you get it. Like, I don't know. You're kind of in that camp and you and the brands that you like are like that, you know. And just maybe handover is a good thing to end on because I think it was kind of like a big driving force behind this conversation. And maybe the end of the handover story is that and the thing we didn't really talk about is that you start with this series of photography that's happening over time.
Dave Sharp:You then make a book. So then that became a party or like an event that you then got more photography of and then shared that photography. And then that brought Hanover to my attention for the first time, counter intuitively, that the photos of the party are the thing that made me discover the book, which discovered the photography. So it's like completely back to front.
Emlyn Olaver:The other thing with that sort of just to extend that idea and, you know, seeing value, but also not not needing to do everything to make a buck necessarily. So, like, I don't invest money in the webs I mean, yeah. Sure. I want it to get me more clients, but I also wanna have fun in the process and work with great people and do something that I'm really proud of irregardless of whether, you know, so and so is gonna love it or not. But, with the with the book, I say on the Instagram, I just posted if anyone's interested in it, flick me a message or an email, and I'll send you a copy.
Emlyn Olaver:And lots of people offer money for postage or whatever, and it's not necessary. It's sorta I think that that act of, you know, sharing and, you know, being open about these things and and not necessarily doing it for any financial gain is really important. You know, I'm proud of what we've done. I'm proud of what we've put together there. I'm if you're interested in it, great.
Emlyn Olaver:I'll send you a copy.
Dave Sharp:Emily, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, man. That was really interesting. We went a lot of different areas, but, yeah, I really appreciate you coming on, man.
Emlyn Olaver:Awesome. Thanks a lot. Love what you do, Dave.
Dave Sharp:Thanks, man. That was my conversation with Emlen Olivier from Olivier. If you'd like to learn more about his studio, you can visit oliver.com.au or follow the studio on Instagram at oliver_ architecture. Office Talk is supported by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe.
Dave Sharp:So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharp.com. Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next
Emlyn Olaver:time.
