The Local Project
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more, or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today is Aidan Anderson, the founder and editor in chief of The Local Project, an architecture publication known for celebrating extraordinary design to an inspired community. In this episode, Aidan and I discussed how the local project has evolved from an Instagram page Aidan used to share his favorite architecture and interiors while working as a furniture maker, to a 46 person media company with a category leading YouTube channel, website, magazine, and book, We spoke about the importance of highlighting the humans behind architecture, ensuring the architect or homeowner is front and center, and how this narrative driven approach has been key to the success of their well known project films.
Dave Sharp:We looked at why Aidan believes architectural print is far from dead, and the thinking behind the launch of a magazine that has the qualities of a book designed to be kept and displayed. And finally, we spoke about what's next for The Local Project and why Aidan is excited about the potential for new forms of educational content that teaches the public about the thinking behind great architecture. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Aidan Anderson from The Local Aidan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
The Local Project:Thanks for having me, mate. It's, It's, it's really great to be here. I love I love what you've built.
Dave Sharp:Oh, thank you. I love what you've built, mate. The local project, and that's actually, that's a good place to start, building the local project. So not that long ago, that made humble beginnings to what it is now. Tell us a little bit about the journey.
Dave Sharp:Just give us a brief kind of backstory of the local project for anyone who hasn't kind of picked up on it.
The Local Project:Definitely. Yeah. Well, it's an interesting one where, 8 years ago, I was a a 21 year old furniture maker. I had a, a workshop out in the industrial area of Sydney. And I decided one day in this workshop, I was sitting down, and I thought, you know what?
The Local Project:I'll create an Instagram page where I'm putting up, you know, some of the work and furniture I'm creating, some of the fit outs I'm doing, and, and also throwing out some, I guess, inspirational interiors and architecture. And I created this page, was putting up my work and this other work as well, and I would say my mates used to give me a bit stick because my stuff would get 2 or 3 likes, but the inspirational local interiors and architecture would get, you know, 20 or 30 likes. But I kinda had to sit down after, you know, 3, 4 months of of growing this page and and watching it grow and the audience grow as well. And I I kinda realized that I preferred celebrating other people's work and, I guess, you know, the architecture and design and the people behind it. And a big part of that was, you know, in this communal workshop, I was reaching out to the other makers in there and sitting them down and and kinda interviewing them around the furniture they're making, where it's going, a little bit about their story and their background, and and posting this on the Instagram page as well.
The Local Project:And, yeah, it just kept growing and growing and growing. And, you know, 8 years later, obviously, a few skips in between, but, you know, there's over 3, 4,000,000 audience members and and now 63 of us as well. So it's been a journey from humble beginnings.
Dave Sharp:At the early stage where it was just like an Instagram account that was really kind of thriving and doing well, I mean, that's a pretty big jump to take that to kind of commercialize that and turn that into a business. Like, there's a lot of people that will make Instagram accounts, but to turn that into a real company, how did that kinda jump happen?
The Local Project:It wasn't easy. And, look, speaking openly, in the 1st couple of years, I was doing still furniture making and fit outs and also trying to figure out how commercialize it as well. But, you know, I often walked into to meeting rooms and met with brands and potential partners and saying, hey. I've got this Instagram page or these these digital channels where we're celebrating local design and architecture. Would you like to work with us?
The Local Project:And they just sent me straight out of the out of the meeting room. So, honestly, the the first couple of years was really tricky trying to figure it out and and figure out what the hook was in terms of helping celebrate these creatives. But in in about year 2, at the end of year 2, we we had a couple of first partners where they sat me down. They said, hey. We can see what you're doing here, what you're building, and we can see the momentum that the digital world has in design and architecture, and we back you.
The Local Project:And as soon as that came through, these, you know, particular couple of brands, that was the beginning of me working full time as, I guess, you know, an Instagram man or and with a with a bit of a page behind it and and building out the channels. But, but, yeah, the the rest is history from there. And for us, it was about building those other mediums and channels as well.
Dave Sharp:I imagine, the one of the biggest challenges of going through that was not only convincing the sponsors that you guys were serious and that there was like value in collaborating, but I reckon the architects must have been hard to win over. There must have been a good period there where just like this podcast, you know, as it's gone over time, it's gotten easier to get more kind of better known guests or whatever like that. So one of the things that I guess happens as you start to kind of slowly build a bit more of like a name in the space. But like when you're talking about people giving their projects to you to publish versus giving them with someone else, it's like asking them for their firstborn child or something. It's like such a commitment.
Dave Sharp:That must have been so hard in the early days. How did you get around that?
The Local Project:Definitely. No. We were always at the end of the line for getting the projects, which is fine. And, and, you know, I got used to it. But I think the way I got around it was, just meeting with people in person, whether it's, you know, Sydney Firms and Studios Melbourne.
The Local Project:And, you know, it was often the emerging and and not so established firms and studios that had time for me to come around and and have a coffee or have a beer or whatever it might be. And I think those personal con personal connections that I created over those early years is where the work started coming in for us, and we started posting and celebrating that. And, you know, these guys and girls were going, well, hold on. That's odd. You know, this this post is getting 1,000 alike.
The Local Project:I'm getting inquiries. I'm getting messages. So, you know, it's a long a long, long path, but it really just started with personal connections and, giving people, I guess, a taste of what digital and social media could could look like and feel like on their end. And, we just built up from there.
Dave Sharp:So did it still work for you not having, like, the first look exclusive on the project? Like, at that point, essentially, it wasn't a major issue for you that, like, another pub like, a magazine or something took the project and then you guys came along, you know, a couple weeks down the road and checked it up on Instagram and put on the website. Like, they didn't really, like, set you back right. Is the exclusivity concept like like, I think you maybe demonstrated that, it it, like, maybe doesn't matter. But
The Local Project:I looked back then, it was it was interesting because a lot of these traditional publishers hadn't even thought about social and digital media. So, you know, us with a 100,000 Instagram followers was an extremely large amount of followers given the time, and these other publishers hadn't adapted to digital. So it wasn't necessarily the be or not be all and end all for me. That print was getting the first run, and and I totally respected and understand that. So, yeah, it wasn't too much of an issue, at all, to be honest.
Dave Sharp:So it really kinda came down to actually going out there and, like, building these sort of relationships. You mentioned the smaller practices, was that sort of the approach maybe is to kind of maybe play the long game with some of these small practices, build a bit of loyalty to to the local project brand before they develop loyalty to some other, you know, publication.
The Local Project:A bit of that, but I think more than anything, I was pretty intimidated by some of the, you know, the big and and popular firms and studios. You know, the work that comes out of here, is phenomenal. And I used to look at all these, you know, big firms and studios and go, well, I could send them an email, but, you know, they probably wouldn't have time for a bloke in his Instagram page and a website. So for me, it just made sense connecting with, you know, these younger emerging firms and studios who, you know, actually had their Instagram pages or digital media channels, and they had adapted to it. Because some of those larger firms and studios at the time were obviously print focused.
The Local Project:So it was nice just to reach out to them, and, they had no real expectations and and neither did I for the most part. And it was just, yeah, again, authentic and genuine connection and and good chat.
Dave Sharp:I guess, like, when you're doing things on social media, versus putting together a print magazine in those earlier days, yeah, I guess you can be a little bit looser with your editorial choices in a way because, you know, you're not constrained by the the tight limits of only having so many projects to kind of put in a magazine. Were you able to sort of publish or take on a bit more of a cross section of projects. Like, that seemed like a bit of an advantage as well Definitely. Maybe.
The Local Project:Yeah. It was the wild west back then, I think, for digital and social media as a whole, really. Like, we and I were still finding my feet in terms of design and architecture, having had pretty much no background in it for the most part. So for me, it was an opportunity to obviously see all the amazing projects and content out there and post as much as we could. We didn't write about as much as we could and and see what resonated with our audience as it built as well.
The Local Project:So, you know, we did an array of of projects from, obviously, a lot of smaller ones and, obviously, high budget ones as well. And it was interesting and and and still to this day as well, it's it's fascinating where, you know, our audience isn't necessarily driven by the biggest, spousiest homes and houses. It's often the people behind it and the narratives of these stories. So, you know, beautiful small apartments with an amazing detail throughout it or even, you know, midsize projects where, you know, these architects and designers and the way they speak about their projects is, you know, quite great and and including the homeowner and what they have to say about it. So it's often the stories and the humans and people behind it, that resonate with our audience from day dot and even till today as well.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp. At Office Dave Sharp, we take a longer term approach to strategy, marketing, and brand definition. Working exclusively with established local and global architecture practices, we apply our structured and in-depth process to develop thoughtful brand strategies and a considered 12 month marketing plan for those looking to reflect on the direction of their business. By placing a stronger focus on highly crafted marketing and communications, and elevating the quality of your brand elements, including messaging, visuals, media, and more, we're able to provide you with research driven methodologies that are backed by measurable outcomes. This style of thinking and working doesn't just consider your practice's impact and purpose beyond tomorrow.
Dave Sharp:It provides a thoughtful approach for your marketing that focuses on quality, not quantity. So for more information or to book a consultation, simply visit office dave sharp dot com. That's interesting, the comment you made about not necessarily coming from that architecture background, which is actually kind of an interesting starting point to launching a really successful architectural publication, isn't it? Actually, come to think of it, that's that's really, really interesting. I mean, you also then, I suppose, went on this kind of personal journey of kind of defining your own taste and stylistic preferences for architecture.
Dave Sharp:I guess like how much did you find that the kind of the creative direction for the local project sort of reflected your own personal preferences for work or were you kinda like the Devil Wears Prada kind of Anna Wintour visionary of, you know, the whole exercise or was it kind of like, oh, it's not really about that. We've got this kind of collective sort of brand identity of what the local project is as a as a how does it pick projects, I guess, is, interested in getting into your thinking on that.
The Local Project:I've always said that naivety is the biggest blessing for me and having no particular background in design or architectural publishing because, ultimately, for us, it's essentially what resonates with our audience the most. And that's the approach I've had thinking, what would I wanna see if I was our audience member, and what do they wanna see as well? So to be driven by the audience rather than my personal taste or anyone else's personal taste and to kinda box us into a particular type of project or architect designer. Again, it's been our blessing because we've been able to just analyze what works well, how people want to resonate with those stories, how they want to hear them, how it how it's supposed to be delivered as per each medium as well. And, again, I think that's the beauty of being, you know, this young company which can be nimble, where we're not afraid to try different things, whether it's a medium or a platform or a way of storytelling.
The Local Project:So, again, that's our biggest strength as a business, I think.
Dave Sharp:What I find interesting is that, you know, you have this really analytics and performance and engagement driven sort of process in terms of like what's resonating with the audience, like what's getting traction and then starting to like iterate on that, right? Like that's really, really, really powerful. But I think what's kind of amazing is that, you know, you see that out there and sort of that sort of process, what does that sometimes lead to? It's just like world's most crazy mansion or like biggest pool or you won't believe the size of this window. If you like really like kind of exclusively pursue the engagement side of things, you can end up in this really weird space with this like kind of quite weird architecture.
Dave Sharp:Whereas like the direction The Local Project headed is like really beautiful, elegant, sophisticated, top shelf architecture. And it's like really good that you somehow found the balance between that very what's engaging, what's resonating with the audience. Let's do more of that while at the same time having, like, a really quality focused editorial direction.
The Local Project:And I think, look, there's 2 types of brands or publishers or whatever you wanna call it, even just businesses as a whole where there's engagement on a clickbait point of view, where it's like, you know, the world's largest x, y, zed. But for us as a business, we're driven by watch time, time on page. We're driven by our audience spending as long as they can engaging with these stories that we're telling. So, you know, a good example is with our videos, which average, you know, 5, 6, 7 minutes, our average watch time is 50 plus percent of that. So it's not these audience members coming on and, you know, watching 10 seconds and seeing the world's biggest window and then failing out.
The Local Project:For us, it's like we're engaging with them. We're telling a great story. We've got these amazing characters in the video or in the print magazine, and they're spending an extensive amount of time on our channels. So that's the biggest thing that we're driven by, I guess, in terms of engagement.
Dave Sharp:Which is, like, kind of effectively, like, the way that Netflix and stuff look at things as well. It's like how much time are people actually spending on the platform? And that's like more than just the pure numbers. Yeah. You don't want that like huge volume of just kind of useless clicks.
Dave Sharp:So I guess maybe talking about early on, I mean, you guys were just smashing ridiculous numbers on on Instagram, on the website, obviously, then on YouTube, wherever there's a platform to smash the algorithm, do really, really well. I think you guys have like cracked it multiple times over, which is just amazing. Behind the scenes, is there anything else that you kind of focus on and go like, what these platforms want is this? Or what these audiences respond to is this? Like, how do you get this sense of, like, what is the the kind of magic source of, like, high levels of engagement around work?
The Local Project:To be honest with you, like, our our secret sauce, and I think the biggest success for us as a business is we humanize the design and architecture. And I think our secret sauce is actually the architects, the designers, the creatives, the homeowners behind each of it. I think people connect with people, and, you know, everyone can relate to a beautiful home, whether it's a mansion, whether it's a small home, or whatever it is. We all live in a home, and we all can resonate with it. You know, I often think about one of our most popular video series of an architect's own home, which time on time again is our best performing video content.
The Local Project:And that's because people are curious about architects and the decisions that they make for their own home. They wanna hear from them why they've made particular decisions, why it looks so beautiful, why they've chosen a certain material. And, again, it's just this human connection that, you know, you can create through your audience and the people that you're showcasing and celebrating as well.
Dave Sharp:So, like, in an alternative universe where you guys make, like, the same videos, but you take out the architect and take out the voice over, like, the interview aspect of it? Like, do you feel like the thing just
The Local Project:Flops. Totally flops. Absolutely. And this is what I say to architects and designers all the time. It's like, you can do the most amazing and beautiful work in the world, but you guys are in the service game where, ultimately, the person who's gonna bring you on is a person, is a human, and you need to connect with that person.
The Local Project:And I think platforms like video and, obviously, print and channels where you can humanize yourself and the the work that you do, that gives you a bit of an upper edge because people understand how you talk, you know, some of your quirks, your personality, your your accent, whatever it might be, and humanizing your content, whether it's through a publisher or through your own brand, is paramount, I feel, especially in this kind of digital and social world that we live in in addition to the print side of things as well.
Dave Sharp:Similar to the podcast in a way that there's a lot of architects that you never really got to see, you know, what are they like, what's their personality, things like that. And it's the videos can be, you know, really, really interesting. When we talk about the, like, project films, there's always this question that comes up. Like, I find this at work all the time where clients will wanna make a film and they'll say like, oh, I don't think I should be in it. I think the client should be in it.
Dave Sharp:And I'm always like, yeah. I mean, that's a really nice idea, but can we, like, just put you in it instead? And, like, talk about the building. And obviously, a majority of videos on the local project channel is like architects owned to a architect explains building, architect does this and that. And it's like, you know, kind of become a bit sort of unfashionable to make the architect the hero a little bit these days, yet it still seems to be like what people are drawn to.
Dave Sharp:Interested in your thoughts on it because obviously it's an issue. It's a real thing, this sort of balance between architect and client, particularly residential. Do you know?
The Local Project:Well, it's interesting because, like, in Australia and New Zealand, a lot of architects are incredibly humble, and they're not overly keen to to be in front of camera. And then, obviously, the US, where we've started creating a lot of content, my god. You should see these guys and girls. They are amazing in the hot seat. They love the opportunity.
The Local Project:These guys are born to speak in front of camera, and they're so confident and well spoken. And these are some of our best performing videos as well. So I actually do think it's more of, like, an Australian Kiwi thing where it's not always our our nature to get out there and celebrate how amazing we are at what we do, but, you know, I think we should be taking a leaf out of the US book because, the comfortability those guys have is is phenomenal, and, you know, it oozes through the screen when people watch and oozes through digital and social and everything as well. So, take the leap of faith is is the the recommendation I give to those architects saying they don't want to. They create multiple narratives.
The Local Project:Like, it's still you still wanna hear from the homeowner. You wanna hear from the architect, the interior designer, the builder as well. Like, I think, honestly, the more the merrier because it's different perspectives of the same projects. It's different journeys all coming together. So embrace it, I say.
Dave Sharp:I suppose when we talk about, you know, asking this question of, like, what is the kind of the the secret sauce to getting, like, really, really good awesome levels of engagement. I'm thinking that we're talking about a local project, but hopefully, you know, architects listening might be able to tease out some little lessons. What are some of the common patterns that you may have picked up on in terms of stuff that tends to outperform on the local project channel? Like, stuff that people really, really resonate with. And again, I am talking specifically about Instagram and I guess, like, the types of projects that you feel are like where they really hit that sweet spot and you expect, like, big things to happen.
The Local Project:The the level of content creation is obviously the first thing we look at. It needs to be obviously beautifully produced, with amazing creatives. And every project is it comes down to the storytelling behind it. Like, if that content is amazing and it has a great story behind it as well, that's all that matters. You know, I don't look at a particular project and say, I need it to have concrete, or I need it to be 3 levels, or I need it to be in the outback, or whatever it might be.
The Local Project:It really just comes down to how beautiful the imagery is and how well it's been captured, and understanding the story lines behind it from multiple narratives as well. And, you know, sometimes it is unexpected, the projects that do incredibly well. You know, one of my party tricks back in the day was I used to be able to to look at a project and say exactly how many Instagram likes it would get within 10%. But, you know, it's hard these days because the amount of content out there and, obviously, the audience bearing as well-being bigger and bigger. But, really, yeah, content creation is paramount, and, I I guess, that storytelling side of it too.
The Local Project:You know, what is the hook? What is the catch? What is unique about this particular project that will entrance interest an audience?
Dave Sharp:I think over time, I feel like the local project, that's kind of like it almost has a type, I think, is like felt in the industry. Like, I think people expect like a certain type of project to be like perfect for the local project. Like architects talk about it. They look at their list of upcoming projects, and they think, like, that one will be really good on the local project. Although, obviously, there's so much variety and so many unique projects.
Dave Sharp:Like, there is kind of this median point of, like, maybe a certain type of scale or size or look and feel and that sort of thing or location or whatever. And I guess, like, I'm interested in, like, is there anything that you can speak to in terms of what you feel like that kind of core project is and maybe how that's a bit different from what you sort of see out there in the market more broadly, like where your kind of your sort of sweet spot is in terms of like residential architecture. But also, I guess, like, I wonder if that's a reflection of the type of audience that you guys have built as well, that it isn't just every single person out there. It's like a particular type of person who has, like, a particular type of interest in design and property and yeah. I'd be interested in just speaking to that idea of, like, how you guys have found your kind of niche, you know?
The Local Project:Yeah. Look. I don't know if there's a particular see, I I would disagree with you, Dave, in
Dave Sharp:a sense where yeah.
The Local Project:I would disagree in the sense that, you know, I don't think there's a particular project that is perfectly suited to TLP in our channels. And I actually think our diversity can be key. And, you know, I look at some of our recent issues, and there is a nice little array of different types of projects and locations and architects and designers from, know, the best of the best in the world to the emerging ones as well. So we don't look for particular projects in when we're publishing or sending a video team out or whatever it might be. We're totally open to, you know, again, whatever is the best story as well.
The Local Project:Like, we know that our audience, for the most part, is makes up a lot of architects and designers, but it's also these renovators and people about to build, do a new home, or whatever it might be. And, you know, at the end of the day, there's so many different types of builds going on and renovations and everything like that. So we're trying to cater to the audience that we have, which is getting bigger and bigger by the day, by the minute. So we've really been conscious of not trying to, you know, shoebox ourselves into a particular type of project and create that diversity and array of different projects too.
Dave Sharp:Like, you've got a particular space in the market, which I feel like the local project has become kind of synonymous with this, like, design savvy, affluent, exclusive, kind of quite aspirational, but not like where is this billionaire gonna park 10 of his private jets kind of level of ridiculousness, but it's but it's at that level where it's, like, pretty epic. In a lot of cases, obviously, there's a range. And you of course, you guys publish projects that are, like, small and all types and shapes and sizes, but I guess, like, I feel like that audience, that demographic you describe, and then like the projects that they're the most kind of like drawn to or inspired by. I feel like there's a lot of that type of content that you guys put out there. So I'm just interested in you talking about this demographic, I guess, this segment, what they're about, because I feel like you've kind of really broken into that part of the market and really, like, made it this super strong segment.
The Local Project:I think, ultimately, what we showcase the best is high end design, whether it's a smaller project or a larger project as well. And, again, talking about the data and analytics, like, we understand that our audience is their design lovers. They're high high income earners. They are sophisticated. You know, they're, they love design.
The Local Project:They love architecture. So for us, it's, yeah, it's high end design by, you know, the best of the best architects in the world, but, I mean, it also talks to some of the work coming out of these younger and emerging firms and studios is phenomenal too. So
Dave Sharp:Some of these are really magnificent projects that some of these more established architects do that you guys publish. Like stuff you put regularly on Instagram of your, you know, your visits to places overlooking Sydney Harbor are just like incredible, incredible projects. And I feel like that draws in this group because it's so aspirational, but then you kind of expose them to smaller practices doing, you know, more sort of like approachable kind of levels of projects that are much more kind of at the level where it's not like, you know, a 30,000,000, $50,000,000 house on the harbor, but it's like there's that balance of those different levels. And I think it's interesting that you guys have found a position that because it's like ultra sort of design focus that or elevated design that it that it does, like, work at that small practice level as well?
The Local Project:Definitely. And interestingly, like, every single medium has their own unique audience behind it as well. Like, we know the people that are subscribed and buying the magazines. Those are often people that are doing the new build, and they've got the big budgets, and they've got the Range Rovers and everything like that. But, you know, when when you compare it to YouTube, which is one of our most vocal communities, and, you know, we put up the most expensive and luscious home there.
The Local Project:And it's very divisive in the comments where, you know, half of the people are going, oh, this is phenomenal. I love this. And a lot of it is going, oh, how the rich live. So per medium, it it does differ quite a lot, but it's those premium, I guess, channels and mediums like print, that tend to resonate with the high income earners, the highly educated, audience members as opposed to, you know, god forbid, TikTok on the other end, which the medium age of, you know, 20 to 25, they're looking at is as aspirational content and consuming it totally different to someone sitting down in their beautiful home reading publication.
Dave Sharp:I think that's a good point about the print publication. Hey. So do you find that people that are engaging with that are a bit more, like, in the market, so to speak. Like, they're actually, like, in some research consideration phase of, like, looking at architects and architecture and things like that.
The Local Project:Definitely. Yeah. I I find that, you know, prints is not dead in our world, especially kind of the objects that will sit on a coffee table for years to come. But we often chat to architects and designers who say clients come in with a TLP magazine as a reference point or other larger publications as well. So it's print that resonates with those circles I find the most, those kind of people looking to do the new builds.
The Local Project:And, you know, it's again, it is a great reference point, and and it's something that's physical and tangible as well.
Dave Sharp:When I'm doing marketing strategy and brand strategy for clients, like, we'll often, you know, interview their best kind of past clients or current clients to try and like build, you know, a bit more of a profile around them. And I'm always asking them about media sources and really trying to find out like what role, like the architecture media kind of plays in their lives. And I get the sense that they're always just in general, they're following accounts on Instagram or they're on Pinterest or whatever, but they're kind of consuming stuff very passively from the algorithms on a very like day to day basis. But then they get into this phase before they start their project where it's like buying magazines, buying books. Like they go out and they like purchase stuff.
Dave Sharp:Like they're on a mission to kind of go, like, I wanna get the local project. I wanna get houses. I wanna get, like and, you know, and they'll gather it all up because I feel like they want to be given, like, a kind of a curated and reliable kind of set of inspirations. They don't just wanna rely on, like, Pinterest at this point.
The Local Project:I've always thought it's, you know, this kind of subconscious checklist system where they might follow the firm on Instagram, and then they might see some of their work on Pinterest. They might see it in a print publication, and then they'll see it on a YouTube channel or a video as well. And it's this kind of subconscious building of trust with that firm as well. And, obviously, the high you get up that ladder, you see the heavier hitting things like the beautiful print spread, and then you see them on YouTube, and you actually understand what they look and feel like and actually sound like as well. And then, you know, it comes down to the point end where they're deciding between the 2 or 3 firms that they've interacted with over this maybe 1, 2, 3 year period, and then they go from there.
The Local Project:But, yeah, it's kind of a a trust approval process, I would say.
Dave Sharp:I always find it interesting that when you bring out a project in the in the print, it's also like backed up with a video and it's also backed up with a digital and it's also backed up with a social media post. And it's like, there's all these like 3, 4, 5 applications of this project, all kind of hitting at once. That's interesting doing this kind of multifaceted approach to project promotion. At what point did you guys start making sure that there was that consistency of the project goes across the different formats? I feel like a while ago, it was like you just got one thing or the other thing, or maybe a film, maybe in the magazine.
Dave Sharp:I don't know. Did you start to sort of unify it a bit at one point?
The Local Project:Definitely. Yeah. I think as time went on, it was it's so evident and clear to see that every audience member behind each medium was different and unique, and the way that they would interact with that particular type of content, whether it's a Instagram gallery versus a YouTube video versus a TikTok video, the way they interact with it is completely different. So, you know, when we started, we would produce one video and try and splatter it across all the different platforms, and it would do well on one particular channel, but not on another. And we kinda sat down as a group and said, well, let's make sure we're tailoring this type of content for each of the different mediums as well.
The Local Project:So we started doing that. And I remember the first time that we experimented with creating video content of a project that would also be seen in print, which would also go across all of our other mediums. And the amount of engagement once it was all catered and went across this, you know, 12 to 16 week period was phenomenal because we had tailored it to that particular audience and the people behind it. And the other fact of the matter is, you know, producing video content and producing or commissioning shoots, it's incredibly expensive as well. Right?
The Local Project:So we wanna make sure this content goes as far and as wide as possible. So for us, it's kinda like, if we're gonna invest this much money and time into producing this beautiful piece of content, let's make sure we're tailoring and then getting out there as far as possible, which isn't just great for us as a publisher, but it's also great for the architects and designers because the more people they're seen by, the more kind of jobs that they will get as well. And that's important to us as a publisher too. It's making sure we're supporting the industry and getting the names out there as far and wide as possible.
Dave Sharp:I guess, makes makes sense for your platform because, you know, you get more bang for your buck out of, like, the YouTube video because the YouTube video text people to the website, and then that sells them the magazine. And it's like, you get this, like, repeat business out of this transaction with the visitor or whatever. Whereas previously, it was like, they watch the video, then where do they go with that? Know? I guess like this audience that you guys have appealed to, this kind of high end design savvy kind of audience.
Dave Sharp:I mean, in so many ways that I think is kind of a lot of architects, like residential architects, I suppose, it's kind of like their ideal kind of target client in a lot of ways. They might not be comfortable mentioning why, but I will, it's because I guess they have the capacity to afford an architect. So this audience is like pretty appealing, but I guess, you know, you guys have found a way to really communicate to that audience or be interesting to that audience. And I feel like initially, I can imagine that architects might have been a little bit skeptical because local project kind of looks a bit different, feels a bit different to where they had been thinking about getting published in the past. And then eventually, they've kind of become much more on board over time, and now they're completely on board.
Dave Sharp:That says to me that maybe there was something at a point in time that maybe they didn't quite get about this audience, or didn't quite get about these people that they were hoping to sort of, like, speak to. Do you have any thoughts on where there might have been a gap or where there might still be a gap between architects and this audience?
The Local Project:Yeah. I think it talks to, like, the normalization and appreciation of design over the last 10 years and particularly through digital and social media. I think the world as a whole is obviously more connected than ever. But in terms of architects and designers getting their work out there, like, you think about the reach and viewership that you can get from any digital media publication. And by virtue, that has obviously had flow on effect to the wider audiences and public as well.
The Local Project:And the thing that I see as, I guess, a publisher's responsibility in this world is to help normalize that design, and it's happened through this connectivity as well. So, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago, there might have been a much smaller group of people who understood architecture and actually appreciated it. But you look at it now, and some of the most successful Instagram pages, TikTok pages, YouTube channel is about celebrating design, whether it's from Australia or US or around the globe. And I think as time goes on, there is gonna be more and more people that appreciate design and architecture, which obviously means more work for architects, designers, and our industry as a whole. And it is it is happening at a rapid rate as well, and and we'd like to think we've played a bit of a part in that as well.
The Local Project:But, yeah, I think the the connection to design architecture is stronger than ever, and it's it's getting stronger as well.
Dave Sharp:It's really interesting to see, you know, people that can say, like, I follow heaps of architects, or I I can name like several of like, really the best architects, like super respectable architects. I think we kind of got used to there maybe being this bit of a gap where it's like, if you were in the inner circle of the architecture world and you knew who all the real good architects were, and it was this very like kind of exclusive secretive thing of like, who are these people? But it's like a lot of these names, a lot of the people that I'm lucky to have on the podcast, like, they're almost kind of like household names in some respect, like, in just normal sort of everyday life, which is, like, pretty pretty unreal.
The Local Project:Definitely. And I feel like that that has happened by a long mile in the last 10 years. Like, it is the normalization of it. Like you said, it's been often pictured from the outside as this elitist exclusive community of people who can afford architecture and design or at the top end of the world. But that's the beauty of where we're at now is that you can be a 19 year old university student, not even studying architecture and still love design.
The Local Project:Or you can be a 60 year old about to do a new build if you dream home. And that's the reality. And I think that, again, talks to Instagram, all these platforms, social, digital, and all these new print publications coming out is that there's more time and people who are appreciating design. When you
Dave Sharp:talk about that, it reminds me of when I had, Yaz from YSG on the podcast, like, years ago. And we're talking about the role that sort of, like, very aspirational projects kind of play in the world. Like, is it a positive? Is it a negative? Like, what sort of is the role that like, you know, these these really big, pretty like fairly unattainable projects have to play?
Dave Sharp:But she was sort of saying that, you know, she was talking about her own experiences growing up and like how influential, you know, like Vogue Magazine or, you know, like was for her and seeing these like extremely like glamorous, luxurious kind of interiors and seeing beautiful homes and beautiful design. And there's been like a number of guests who have sort of spoken about that. And I think that, yeah, she was saying like how inspiring that was. And yet, I don't know. I sometimes feel like there's a sense that, you know, maybe we wanna kind of move away from that being kind of like the the focal point.
Dave Sharp:And of course, like, I'm not saying the local project is that, and obviously we show like a range of projects, but I think like there's that point there that you mentioned about kind of like the inspirational, aspirational quality of these projects. So that's like a positive that that's something that gets I guess people inspired or get some passionate about architecture sometimes, like seeing some of these projects that may not necessarily be like what they're gonna be buying in 5 years or or or whatever. I just I don't know. What what are your kind of thoughts
The Local Project:on on that? Yeah. I'm all for it. Like, I know there's these amazing beautiful homes out there that a lot of us will never ever be able to afford or even step into, but, I mean, that's the same with any industry or any type of product, whether it's a beautiful car or something different. I mean, they exist for a reason.
The Local Project:It's obviously for a smaller group of people, but understanding how those things come together and the stories behind it is, you know, it's fascinating to me and and a huge amount of people. And I know there's a lot of people out there. And like I said, there's our YouTube community, which is so vocal, and they see these homes. And some of them are going, you know, this is ridiculous. This is people shouldn't be this rich.
The Local Project:But It's
Dave Sharp:probably all the architects in the comments.
The Local Project:Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. But, you know, that's that's the world we live in. Right?
The Local Project:Like, there is these beautiful homes and products out there that's you know, should be available for for the people who can afford it.
Dave Sharp:You mentioned earlier, like, where you feel that Australian work is maybe, like, a little bit different or where maybe Australian architects are a little bit different to like North American architects. What is your main thought on like, I guess, like what is the Australian Architecture brand? Like, what's it about, you know, as a media platform that's kind of beautifully packaged it up and taken it to the world? Like, what are you out there as an ambassador for Australian design? Like, what what is it that you feel like the the audiences overseas are sort of responding to about it?
The Local Project:It's interesting because the last three times I've been to the States since we launched there in in March of last year was, you know, we we go over and we meet with firms and studios to talk to them about, you know, the work coming up. And, you know, usually, these are 1 hour meetings with the firms. And, genuinely, for the first 45 minutes of these meetings, it's talking about how great Australian and New Zealand architecture is and just how even they believe, you know, Australia is world leading in design and architecture, which is amazing. And, honestly, I think it a lot a lot of it comes down to, you know, in places like the States, wealth doesn't necessarily mean great taste, and it's, you know, can be evident over there where, you know, huge budgets, huge homes, but it doesn't necessarily equal an amazing home.
Dave Sharp:They look like Tony Soprano houses. I like this a lot.
The Local Project:A little bit. But, you know, like, there is some amazing work coming out of there, but it's such a smaller slither compared to Australia where, you know, wealthier and people doing these amazing homes and having your money to do these renovations, interior designs, and architecture. The taste is is phenomenal. And I think it talks to the connectivity and appreciation of design in Australia as well, like, similar to what we're talking about in terms of connectivity with design as a whole. But, yeah, it's just the, I guess, the the design and architecture seen here in Australia and especially Melbourne and Sydney, I think, is is phenomenal and and leading the world.
The Local Project:And, and I also think, in particular in Melbourne, the collaboration that happens within the industry and how connected they are on an individual level and how collaborative and open they are with one another, that creates for even more amazing work. You know? I often look at just the community down there, and that's where most of our closest firm, studios, mates, clients, partners are from is Melbourne because they are such a connected community that are happy to share knowledge with one another.
Dave Sharp:I guess jumping over to the print side of things a little bit. I felt like at the time a very unexpected move for you guys to launch a print magazine. That was probably the last thing I ever bloody imagined would, come out of the local project. But then, there you guys come out and bring out like the most popular kind of print publication of architecture out there. And I remember going to buy my first copy at a furniture store on Smith Street in Melbourne, and they were like, oh, like, you gotta preorder one of those.
Dave Sharp:Like, they're all sold as soon as they come. And I'm just like, get out of here. You're telling me I cannot get my hands on a copy of the local project over here. So, it was when that happened that I was like, damn, they are really onto something here. Tell us a little bit about the the print move.
The Local Project:Appreciate that, Dave. No. It looked they called us crazy. I remember speaking to, you know, people in our network and outside of our network saying, hey. I think we're gonna launch a print publication.
The Local Project:And a lot of people were like, what on earth are you doing? Like, print is on the way out. But that's what we thought. And, lo and behold, yeah, we we launched that first magazine, close to 5 years ago now, and it was the response was phenomenal. And I think one of the key things for us is that when you look at our magazine, it's not just a magazine.
The Local Project:It's it's it's almost a book where it's, you know, it's close to 400 pages. It's high quality paper stock. It's uncoated product. And so, longevity is the key for print. And, like, it's amazing in the last year, especially seeing so many print publications resurface and new ones coming out.
The Local Project:But the key thing for them is that these are almost book like as well, and it's an object that will sit on a coffee table for 4 or 5 years to come as well. But that was a pivotal moment for our business where, like I spoke about with the challenges of building trust with the industry as a whole, when we launched that first print publication, we went from this online blog to Yeah. A publishing company.
Dave Sharp:Prestige and credibility just, like, oozing out the book, yeah. Because everyone wants to be in the book. The book's so good, and the book, it still has this grip on all of us, on architects. Like, we're, like, woah. The book.
Dave Sharp:We have to be in the book.
The Local Project:That's right. Well, it's tangible. Right? And it's, like Yeah. It's interesting because we reach out to a lot of architects and designers, and we say, hey.
The Local Project:In this particular case, you can either have one video or you can have a 12 page spread in the print magazine. The video is probably gonna get a 1000000 views or the print magazine, which is, you know, we're doing print runs of 15,000 per edition. I would say 95% of the time, architects are going, give me the print. Give me the print. I want something tangible.
The Local Project:So, you know, it's it's fascinating where even though something is a smaller in terms of impressions and viewership compared to, obviously, a video doing a 1,000,000 views, And maybe it talks to, again, the audience behind it because architects and designers know that this is going to a a premium high end audience as well. But the tangible side, I mean, architects and designers are incredibly tangible. And and, again, it speaks to the object side of things too.
Dave Sharp:That was such a good insight, that idea of it, like, being something to keep and to have, and not this thing that comes in the mail wrapped in plastic and then gets chucked in the bin by the afternoon. Or if you're like crazy, you'll just put them all on your bookshelf and be like, yeah, I just have a section, I never even you know, like, where all my like random monthly magazines go, but it's like the book has this thing where it like gets that pride of place kind of position. Pretty bloody brilliant that you guys figured that out. How did you guys get that so right?
The Local Project:Leap of faith. Leap of faith. Yeah. I remember telling the design team when I said, hey. I think we should put together a print publication.
The Local Project:And they said, come on, mate. We're doing digital. We're doing social. We're doing video. Like, you wanna do a print publication as well.
The Local Project:But when that first box of magazines arrived in our office with the first five copies printed, yeah, the the it was just incredibly impactful. And, you know, there's still that excited feeling we get every time we release a publication is that, you know, we know that it's getting out there and people just absolutely love it, and our subscribership is going through the roof. And, interestingly, you know, we talk about US and the launch there. We're sending, you know, over 2,000 plus magazines per issue over to the states because, they love it. Obviously, they love the tangible sides of of things as well as well as the Australian architecture and design coming out.
The Local Project:So
Dave Sharp:And also the distribution choice you guys made as well. I think there's like such a marketing case study in launching this print book because it's so well executed. Like, putting it in designer homewares, furniture stores, and, you know, places like that and not like newsagents and airport. Totally avoiding the magazine strategy and totally going down like the designer coffee table book strategy is just like bloody brilliant. So good, man.
Dave Sharp:Then you kind of even see it now in terms of get kind of local project ads in my feed for, like, order the box set basically of, like, issues 1 through 10. It's like the earlier editions are still getting this kind of, like, collectible kind of traction to them, which is, like, pretty unreal.
The Local Project:Yeah. Print is absolutely not dead, and especially in our world. And, yeah, it just keeps get getting stronger and stronger. And, you know, we released our 1st hardcover book at the end of last year, and even the impact that that had as well was was amazing. And for us, you know, we've set a goal of let's do a hardcover book 1 to 2 every single year now because it's, I guess, you know, we've been able to make it profitable exercise for us where, like you mentioned, we've cut out the middleman of airports and news agents.
The Local Project:And the beautiful thing about having such a big digi digital audiences is we can connect directly with them to purchase through our website and digital channels, and, and we've been able to make profitable as well. So it's
Dave Sharp:it's exciting. Stop trying to sell books over here. We've all got we're all buying them. It it's interesting. It's bringing back that the print stuff, but also I think like, yeah, it comes back to that point of like, how did you build that prestige and credibility that flows over into the rest of the platform from the magazine?
Dave Sharp:You know, didn't call it the magazine, but the publication, it really sort of injected that, which is so sort of interesting. I think it's just funny how you guys start with Instagram. Then you go, like, I don't know. Did it go Instagram website, YouTube book? Like, you're kind of going back in time through the formats to like, and then it's kind of, I reckon the next one is like, oh no, you're already doing this, awards, awards, conference.
The Local Project:Yes.
Dave Sharp:Like it's getting more and more the next thing you guys will have like a peak professional body for architects or something. Like it's I love it, man. You just it starts as this like pointy end of the spear digital social media thing and it ends up like spreading out to be this like real just kind of more traditional platform, but like I love that you built it the opposite way, which is
The Local Project:pretty Maybe maybe radio next day. What do you reckon? We're going to
Dave Sharp:Stay away from it. You build the brand and then it can start to expand into sort of all these different, like, adaptations of it. How's the competition thing going? I mean, like, in terms of you guys have just started getting into that world, I suppose. And I mean, I'm sure, like, every single other initiative you guys have come up with, you're just gonna absolutely, like, take over the body industry by, like, round 2.
Dave Sharp:That's an interesting kind of space to be in. Like, what are your thoughts behind the kind of the extension of the brand into, like, awards and
The Local Project:I think with awards, like, that's the first awards, obviously, ceremony we did last year where it was called the emerging architects award and toward the merge emerging designer awards in in collaboration with Adadonis. And purely the the only reason we did that was to celebrate the young and emerging architects and firms and studios coming out. It wasn't a profitability exercise. It wasn't to make money. It wasn't even to create a new medium.
The Local Project:I think the biggest thing that I recognize as, you know, as a publisher is that the work coming out of these young firms and studios is absolutely amazing. And it is really hard for them to compete sometimes with the medium and large sites and getting ahead time on a lot of channels. So for us and and Artedomus, it was an opportunity to essentially reach out and say, hey. How can we help celebrate these younger firms and studios and propel their opportunities as well? So awards is is good fun, and and it was a great night, and we're doing it again this year and next year as well.
The Local Project:But, you know, for us, it wasn't necessarily a profitability side of things, which is probably why it was so successful as well.
Dave Sharp:Not to obviously talk about, like, other media players in the space, but it is interesting. I get the feeling that like competitions and awards are becoming like pretty I don't know. They kind of feel like they're the revenue base of a lot of like media platforms at the moment or organizations, right? Like, it feels like that's kind of where the business has shifted for some places. So it is certainly something that can be.
Dave Sharp:Yeah.
The Local Project:It can be. And I think, look, a lot a lot of those traditional publishers who relied so heavily on print, subscribership is going down for a lot of them because they don't have that digital presence and backing to help boost to them. So they are leaning on the awards more than ever and, you know, hoping that the entry fees are getting bigger and bigger every time. But the reality is there is a lot of awards out there, like a a huge huge number of awards, and you can get it lost in the water a little bit as well. So, yeah, it's interesting.
The Local Project:But, yeah, it's it's a tricky scene, I suppose, for that at the moment.
Dave Sharp:As you're saying that it kind of made me think, like, on the publications, when you're saying they're kinda lacking the the digital stuff, I was kinda thinking, like, you know, for a long time, they have. And maybe, like, they've just they're just kind of behind the ball right now. The fact that they're light in itself, what's causing the issues, but it's like fundamentally they have the projects. Like, I think these other publications still have excellent projects to kinda offer. And they and they do the basic things like, you know, they put them up on social media, whatever.
Dave Sharp:And this kinda comes back to the kind of question we touched on earlier about like, you know, ways that architects can also kinda put their content out there. But I'm kinda interested in, you know, the projects are right, the photography is right, so what's the missing ingredient? Like, why do we not see high levels of growth and engagement around some of these other traditional platforms. And not only that, they also have the brands, like, you know, a lot of their brands, they've got cache and they've got value that's like kind of built into them. So it is interesting to see that, you know, they kind of do a lot of the similar things, but they just don't see the same sort of results, which now is kind of the crossover into like how lots of people struggle putting their own stuff out there and feeling like, I'm putting this stuff out there.
Dave Sharp:Why isn't it kind of working? So So I guess just in your world, because that's probably what you can speak to kind of best, is it the lack of the range of platforms that you're across that is the thing that the other publications are maybe, like, missing? Or, like, what is without giving away, like, any of, like, solving all your competitors', problems here.
The Local Project:I think it's probably 2 things. The first being, respectfully, I feel the ship has sailed in terms of growing digital audiences organically. Like, I think back to when I started 8 years ago, Instagram and a lot of these platforms promoted growth because they wanted to build the platform as a whole. And since then, they've pulled it back in there. They kind of, obviously they they still want growth, but not a whole heap.
The Local Project:And the second thing as well is, I think, a lot of the power is shifting to the firms and studios and the individuals behind it. Like, I think about the best architects interior designers in our industry in Australia, a lot of these guys and girls have more followers than a lot of publishers here as well. And if I'm someone who's about to do a renovation or a new build, I'm probably gonna connect more with that individual or that brand more than I am a publisher who's got less followers and and doing other bits and pieces. So I think it's a mix of that, but I love it. Like, I I genuinely feel over the next 10 years, the power is gonna get further and further into the the firms and studios court and the individuals, again, behind it.
The Local Project:And, you know, I I would love to see in the future, and I do feel it will happen. It's like these firms will become their own publishing house where they've got such a massive following and different ways to put out content, and they're filming their own content and becoming the publishers that once worked for as well. So I'm all for it with the power sitting in in their in their court.
Dave Sharp:You know, one thing along this conversation, they always been interested in this, like, as you guys have changed the business model each time, you've always had like a really great way of predicting what the right move would be and you've like launched the print thing and straight away, like basically got it right. You know, it didn't come out this, like, shambling sort of crappy thing that eventually slowly became a good thing. It like came out good. You guys just had a good sense. YouTube just like came out good.
Dave Sharp:Like you figured it out. So along the way, like Local Project, you guys have had like a really good foresight into like what's the right way to do this next move. I just kinda wonder, like, looking ahead, do you guys have anything that's in, like, early sort of stages of development where you sort of think like, eventually, maybe not right now, but eventually, we might have to do something like this or, you know, something like that where, you know, is there anything that you're kind of anticipating that you guys might need to start, like, developing?
The Local Project:Yeah. I think with backing my vision that the power is gonna be more so with the firms and studios, Our next biggest step is understanding that, you know, the house the house tour content that we've done for years now is amazing. Educational content that is heroing the people behind design. So not necessarily the house to us, but actually getting amazing architects and designers in a room, letting them have conversation with one another about educational topics for our audience. And, again, this talks to human centered content and how people relate to people.
The Local Project:And the biggest thing I've noticed over the 3, 4 years of videos we've done, and particularly with videos where we featured an architect maybe in 4 or 5 videos, Our audience recognizes them, and they understand them, and they actually start following them and actually, again, recognizing them as well. And I think that talk to the power of these individuals behind the firms. And if we're able to pluck that out from a house to a video and create individualization with educational content, That is where I think the next key step for us is is where, you know, talking about topics like how will AI influence design and architecture moving forward from an architect who's pro AI, someone who's anti it, and then maybe a young firm or someone from a young firm who's in the middle and doesn't know where to land. I think that type of content where people, more than ever, are seeking out educational content and they want to learn in digestible bites. And if we can do that using the amazing firms and studios and people that we have here, that's what I think will, evolve as a business.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. That's a really fundamental shift or, like, breaking the rules of the whole category, which is that, like, you guys are the platform and then the architect is the guest and their project is the guest and it gets invited into your platform or they get interviewed or whatever like this podcast. But I think like what you're sort of describing is that like kind of the architects become the hosts. So then it kind of goes to more of like TV format in terms of like the renovation show or whatever. Like it it's kind of like, oh, they are now running this format, which is like a kind of a totally different sort of vibe.
Dave Sharp:And a bit of a new not a new frontier, I guess, for architects, but for a lot of them individually, yes. This idea that you're now gonna be potentially hosting something, that's gonna be a big shift.
The Local Project:Definitely. And, look, speaking openly, like, I think what you've created with your platform has been an inspiration and a lot of kind of podcast as educational content where, you know, I haven't missed an episode for a couple of years, and I know a lot of people in the industry haven't either. So I think, again, if you can draw people in and through educational content and celebrating these people and what they have to say, that's the hook, you know, replacing the homes and actually replacing a hook of what they have to say. People want to listen. And, again, design is more accessible and appreciated more than ever.
The Local Project:And if we can help normalize that through this new series of content, both video and and audio, I think it's gonna be a huge success. So I've got my fingers crossed anyway. I
Dave Sharp:can imagine if I was gonna start like a, an architecture podcast network where, like architects were the hosts of the shows, my worry would be in the direction around what topics get talked about. Because on the one hand, if it goes too architectural, you really are gonna kinda lose the audience. It's not gonna be very digestible. But on the other hand, if it goes too like kind of pandering to the audience and it's like, you know, if 3 architects get together and discuss each of our favorite tips for kitchen storage, it's gonna, like, lose all its brand credibility and just be like a really unsophisticated On the one hand, on the one hand, we know what resonates with a large, massive audience. On the other hand, we need to keep it elevated, sophisticated, like, upmarket.
The Local Project:Yeah. It's gonna be tricky, and it is a fine line. My honest answer for you, Dave, is is trial and error. I've I have no doubt that we'll have a few episodes that will absolutely slump, but, like, that's that's the game we play. And I think experimenting with it and having a bit of fun and getting some great guests in, especially, you know, some of the ones that have featured in our house to a content, so our audience is familiar.
The Local Project:We'll get them in there, and we'll preach pre produce the hell out of it and and see where we land. But, you know, I think that's the beauty of where we are as a business is we'll produce a lot of this content. And if we sit down as a group and say, this isn't gonna resonate with our audience, we're not afraid to hook it either. So trial and error, and making plenty of mistakes in between.
Dave Sharp:Thank you so much for covering up the podcast.
The Local Project:Cheers, Dave. I appreciate you.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Aidan Anderson from The Local Project. If you'd like to learn more about the publication, you can visit the local project.com.au, or follow them on Instagram at the local project. Office Talk is hosted by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe. So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharp dotcom.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of office talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time.
